Inappropriate Hugging?

[youbet]

There’s no fool like an old fool.
.

Would the hugging behavior be okay if the perpetrator was 43 or 53 instead of 73? You know, a middle age fool! Why all the emphasis on the perpetrator’s age?

 

[harley]

LOL I never said anything about sexual harassment being a big deal or not - never spoke to that at all in my comment.

I'm talking about the hug that 20 other people witnessed other than the OP and didn't think anything of it. Follow the lead of everyone else - be wise and don't get involved in someone else's affairs.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Mahatma Ghandi

Would the hugging behavior be okay if the perpetrator was 43 or 53 instead of 73?

No. It would be okay if the hugger asked permission and the huggee granted it. Dead stop.

 

[youbet]

No. It would be okay if the hugger asked permission and the huggee granted it. Dead stop.

So why all the emphasis in this thread about the perpetrator being old (73)? I think a younger person would be even more guilty of acting inappropriately.

 

[youbet]

OP is talking about a customer hugging a teen employee who is not a friend, family member, or colleague. Entirely different situations.

How about management sending a teen girl, very scantily dressed, out on a golf cart to solicit beer sales from a mostly male clientele? WTF are they thinking? And the mother (her boss) seems complicit. The whole situation seems to go a lot deeper than OP’s golf buddy doling out unsolicited hugs.

Even the strip joints in the seedy part of town do a better job of protecting their employees.

 

[SecondAttempt]

I will pull him aside the next time I witness it first hand, and see where it goes. I don’t get the impression the other two guys are going to do anything.

I don't think I'd hesitate with true friends to say "Do you think what he is doing is inappropriate toward that girl?" It seems like most people here think it is and we probably come from the same demographic so you may be surprised.

I've never been in a situation where my friends were behaving in a racist, sexist, or misogynistic manner in adulthood but I don't think I'd hesitate to speak up about it. I am of the generation as I think most of us are where disrespect toward LGBTQ people was common and accepted. I'm guilty of that but have changed my ways and opinions as I matured. I'm not going there regarding that except to say the world has changed. I think misogyny and victimizing young or powerless women is a thing of the past and should be called out.

 

[SecondAttempt]

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Mahatma Ghandi



No. It would be okay if the hugger asked permission and the huggee granted it. Dead stop.

Usually permission for a hug is requested with open arms and the huggee leans in. Asking "may I hug you" would just be weird in practice.

Again, I think this is a clear case of a creep at large. But we really have to consider culturally realities here. Seriously can anyone honestly say they have ever asked permission for a hug?

 

[JoeWras]

To lighten it up a bit...

I can't help but think of an old song called "Golf Girl" from the English group Caravan. 1971.

Such a nice story with proper English etiquette about the situation at hand. No hugs. Just proper tipping (he ordered three!) and eventually a relationship. I read that this is basically a true story about how one band member met his wife.

Standing on a golf course, dressed in PVC
I chanced upon a golf girl selling cups of tea
She asked me did I want one, asked me with a grin
For thruppence you can buy one, full right to the brim
So, of course I had to have one, in fact I ordered three
So I could watch the golf girl, could see she fancied me
And later on the golf course after drinking tea
It started raining golf balls, she protected me

 

[old medic]

but one of my golf regulars makes a habit of hugging (very) young women like servers,

I didn't realize my Moms BF played golf...

 

[jollystomper]

Usually permission for a hug is requested with open arms and the huggee leans in. Asking "may I hug you" would just be weird in practice.

Again, I think this is a clear case of a creep at large. But we really have to consider culturally realities here. Seriously can anyone honestly say they have ever asked permission for a hug?

I have never asked to hug anyone, as I do not seek hugs.

However, I have been asked plenty of times by women for a hug. DW has also been asked by women if they could hug me. Usually it has to do with the woman feeling I did something incredibly helpful/nice for her. Or DW, who hugs her female friends, becoming good friends with a woman who thought I was not being friendly towards them because I did not hug them.

If a woman, through her own free choice and will, wants to hug me, I take it as a compliment and do not turn it down . Of course, DW at times has threatened to "ban" me from certain places or her friends when this has happened, but that is another matter .

 

[aaronc879]

So why all the emphasis in this thread about the perpetrator being old (73)? I think a younger person would be even more guilty of acting inappropriately.

I think it would be equal. Age should have no bearing on it at all as long as all involved are at least 18.

 

[punkinhead]

So why all the emphasis in this thread about the perpetrator being old (73)? I think a younger person would be even more guilty of acting inappropriately.

I've heard people excuse poor behavior by older folks because "they're just a product of their time". I've seen people try to dismiss racism, sexism, inappropriate comments, touching, etc, because the perpetrator grew up in a time when society excused it.

 

[StillFiguringItOut]

Would this “hug” happen if the servers were male? If the answer is no, the hug is sexist, bullying behavior.

 

[Aerides]

No. It would be okay if the hugger asked permission and the huggee granted it. Dead stop.

I would not even agree with asking permission. What's a she going to do, be perceived as rude and say No? In my experience, most people who pull that already have their arms outstretched, "can I get a hug?" - bleh...ughhh, at least I have time to brace for it...

There is a power imbalance here, he's a regular club member. She's not a peer. 9/10 she will say Ok even if she would prefer not to. Path of least resistance...

There is no justifiable reason for a customer to give random hugs to only young attractive women. He's not hugging everyone, he's not hugging the male servers (unless that was omitted by the OP). He has a habit of hugging the young women only.

And sure, his age doesn't really matter, only in that he is clearly older than his targets, which represents another factor in the imbalance.

 

[pacergal]

Maybe it's just me, but one of my golf regulars makes a habit of hugging (very) young women like servers, and it's not to be friendly IMO. He's 73 divorced, and he's decided it's OK for him to frontal hug the 20 something girl that drives the beverage cart for tips at the golf course we play at. She plays along but I can't believe she appreciates it - he's old enough to be her grandfather. He does it with other young women as well, flirts with them at every opportunity (also seems out of line to me at his age). It seems totally inappropriate to me, but I am sure it would end our friendship if I called him on it no matter how carefully I word it - he has a very short fuse anyway.

Is it even my place to say anything, if the girls put up with it? Since it's always in a customer (him) to server (girls) situation, I can understand how they might choose to accept his hugs.

Or maybe I should just keep my nose out of it?

Totally inappropriate and should be reported. If you don't feel comfortable confronting your friend, I'd reach out to management and bring your concerns to them. Customers sexually harassing their staff shouldn't be tolerated.


The girls "put up with it" because they're scared. That's how abuse works.

YES, please say something! Women need men to speak up to other men about sexual harassment and abuse issues. You are uncomfortable about it, so speak to him. He is using HIS anger to keep You in check. Speak up!
If he gets his feeling hurt and goes off and sulks, so be it. His behavior is warranted to be stopped.

 

[splitwdw]

Every single woman that's replied on this thread has said it's not appropriate. Quite a few of the men have said it's not appropriate. Those of you that think it's okay or not a big deal to be hugged by a customer need to listen, it's not okay. You are making excuses for inappropriate behavior. Stop with the age or dementia or ask permission comments, it's not appropriate behavior.

 

[Texas Proud]

As for asking... I do not think that is any help.... what is the girl going to do if he holds out his arms and asks... 'can I get a hug?'... it is the same power dynamics at play and she might not feel right to say no...


However, I just remembered some lady I used to know that when someone would come to hug her she would grab their arms with her hands and hold them so they could not wrap them around her but would lean in for the 'hug'...

 

[youbet]

I've heard people excuse poor behavior by older folks because "they're just a product of their time". I've seen people try to dismiss racism, sexism, inappropriate comments, touching, etc, because the perpetrator grew up in a time when society excused it.

While I’m sure that’s all true, my preference would be to have unsolicited touching banned, period. The age, sex or sexual preference of the perpetrator or the victim should not come into play. When we bring those factors into play, it just adds complexity to our judgment of the situation.

 

[Qs Laptop]

I'm talking about the hug that 20 other people witnessed other than the OP and didn't think anything of it.

Must be nice to be able to read people's minds. Both remotely and after the fact.

Follow the lead of everyone else - be wise and don't get involved in someone else's affairs.

Be a lemming--great advice!

Can I get a round of applause from those that are easily led?

LOL I never said anything about sexual harassment being a big deal or not - never spoke to that at all in my comment.

Well, is it a big deal? Or not?

 

[harley]

Usually permission for a hug is requested with open arms and the huggee leans in. Asking "may I hug you" would just be weird in practice.

Again, I think this is a clear case of a creep at large. But we really have to consider culturally realities here. Seriously can anyone honestly say they have ever asked permission for a hug?

As for asking... I do not think that is any help.... what is the girl going to do if he holds out his arms and asks... 'can I get a hug?'... it is the same power dynamics at play and she might not feel right to say no...


However, I just remembered some lady I used to know that when someone would come to hug her she would grab their arms with her hands and hold them so they could not wrap them around her but would lean in for the 'hug'...

Exactly! Asking at least gives the person some warning, and they can come up with ways to avoid it if unwanted. And yes, Second, I do ask permission for a hug, even with family members. I've become aware recently how invasive moving into someone's space like that can be. Even with my 7 yo DGD, I find it's better to ask. Permission is usually granted, the hug is given, and everyone moves on without bad feelings.

DW has told me stories about when she was a girl, and her grandfather would grab her and hug and hold her, far beyond her feeling of comfort. She says it's a control issue, and whether he intended anything by it, it made her feel a loss of control. So I ask, and don't feel rejected if I'm told no. Then again, I don't randomly hug strangers, so I don't really run into this situation outside of the family too often. I'm a old white guy, with no real issues with being hugged. But I am made uncomfortable when people invade my space. So it's just a matter of feeling empathy with the other person, and giving them the ability to control the encounter. It's not that big a deal.

And to whoever was asking, no, I don't think age comes into play in this. Other than us older guys not neccessarily being very aware of the change in dynamics in the world today.

 

[GenXguy]

Must be nice to be able to read people's minds. Both remotely and after the fact.

You must have missed posts in this thread where the OP mentioned those other people witnessing it.

Can I get a round of applause from those that are easily led?

That's what people are trying to do in this thread rather than understanding you shouldn't get involved in other people's affairs. It's not like there's some crime being committed here with consentual hugging. It's a big nothingburger. No one likes someone who always butts in on their business. Live your own life instead of complaining about everyone else.

Well, is it a big deal? Or not?

The hug is absolutely NOT a big deal. I thought I made that clear multiple times already. People do it all the time - it's an accepted thing in society. From the OP, it doesn't sound like there was any groping or sexual advances going on. If you want to talk about those things, that should be in a different thread, not to be confused with innocent hugs.

 

[GenXguy]

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Mahatma Ghandi

So now a hug is "evil"? lol

No. It would be okay if the hugger asked permission and the huggee granted it. Dead stop.

I've witnessed a lot of hugging, and I don't recall people asking permission for that. Sounds weird. But, I really don't see hugging as being an "evil" thing like some posting here. I noticed someone said that all touching should be banned!

 

[LateToFIRE]

Would this “hug” happen if the servers were male? If the answer is no, the hug is sexist, bullying behavior.

I wonder if the sleazy hugger demonstrated an overt proclivity towards giving all the young boy caddies a prolonged bear hug, how long would it take for club members or management to step in?

I bet not long.

 

[Aerides]

So now a hug is "evil"? lol

I've witnessed a lot of hugging, and I don't recall people asking permission for that. Sounds weird. But, I really don't see hugging as being an "evil" thing like some posting here. I noticed someone said that all touching should be banned!

Unwanted hugs are bad for the recipient. Period. If that hasn't sunk in by now, there is no talking to you.

 

[Tadpole]

Several times I have told people, either face-to-face or written, something of the sort - "I am sending you a big hug." Usually, people need to know you care, not to physically contact you. I hope wireless hugs are OK.

 

[youbet]

I don't think age comes into play in this. Other than us older guys not neccessarily being very aware of the change in dynamics in the world today.

You may not be very aware of the change in dynamics in the world today Harley, but many of us are. So, please, just speak for yourself.