is it the battery or the starter?

[ERD50]

EDR50/All
Previous post with misinformation, deleted.
It did not occur to me that someone might remove the positive battery cable, while the vehicle was running.
Of course if the vehicle was running , one would not have progressed to that step in the process.

*Nothing is Sailor Proof*

Thanks - and I didn't mean to pick on you specifically, just generically there is a lot of advice being thrown around, and we can't actually see/hear the problem. And batteries can be very dangerous, I just hate to see any disinformation lead to a problem.

Not to belabor this (which I guess is exactly what I am going to do! ), but actually, the procedure you describe could lead to the problem of a high voltage spike (but not the 'spark at the battery' issue - unless they tried to reconnect it while running - who knows?).

If the car started with the lithium pack after disconnecting the main battery, then the alternator would be kicking in, and w/o the load of the main battery, the voltage could get to levels that could damage electronics. Maybe it would be fine, but there really is no need to risk it.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

Ah, speaking of checking to see if the alternator is good, you need a voltmeter, and to test under the right condition. Of course, this means that you have the car already running.

With the car running at idle, turn on your headlights. Also turn on your AC and cabin blower full-blast. If you have someone to step on the brake to turn on the brake lights, that's better.

Now, use the voltmeter to measure the voltage at the battery terminals. Again, whenever you measure the battery voltage, stick the probes to the lead posts of the battery. This way, your measurement is not affected by possible poor contacts between the posts and the terminals.

The battery voltage should be 13.8V or above.

The reason you turn on all the electrical loads is so that you can be sure that the alternator can supply all the loads while the engine is running at idle, as it is designed to do. If not, you will drain the battery when driving at low speeds, and that's no good.

I once had an alternator with a partially failed rectifier assembly. Alternators are 3-phase design, and they can fail so that you can have 2/3 or 1/3 of the full capacity. Everything seems to work fine until you drive at night, and also have the AC with blower on.

 

[ERD50]

No he didn't. He said 12.4V OR ABOVE. And BTW, reading/interpreting battery voltage (while charging or not) without understanding what loads are on it is meaningless.

No, the "OR ABOVE" doesn't remove the logic error. I ought to know, I've made plenty of logic errors in my programming!

Refer back:

To clarify - car battery voltage should be 12.4 or above when idle. In a running car the voltage should read 13.5 - 14.7 because the alternator is charging it. ...

A) 12.4 OR ABOVE also includes the voltages of 12.4 to 13.5

B) He says "should read" 13.5 to 14.7,

C) (added for clarity) 'running' is 'idling', 'idling' is 'running'.

Well, a reading of say 13.0 fits "A", but doesn't fit "B". It is a contradiction, and I don't know what he really meant.

I can tell you that a reasonably charged battery won't read 12.4 when idling, the alternator will kick that up to the 13.5 to 14.7 range that he mentions (even at idle). Only a fairly well discharged battery will be as low as 12.4 V with the car running, even at an idle.

edit: See NW-Bound's post that I crossed with.

Edit/add: But I do agree with you, one needs to take into account the load (and time since it has been loaded or charged) when trying to make sense of a lead-acid battery voltage reading. It's not as straightforward as it sounds. Which is why I'm posting some of these challenges, a little bad info can go a long way.

-ERD50

 

[finnski1]

So right there you have contradicted yourself. A car that is idling is 'running' and the alternator is charging it, so 12.4V is not in the range of 13.5 - 14.7 V.

-ERD50

I read it as the car was at idle as in not running but just sitting there. If that's the case then it was probably jut a bad choice of a word. Should have said "not running" or something similar.

 

[Ronnieboy]

Walmart's equipment says the 12.4 V is okay which means I will have to fight them for a new battery.

Interestingly enough, I called a local Goodyear shop when asking for a quote on replacing the starter.
The guy told me that he also had someone who had a Honda Accord towed in to the shop. The battery was also bought from Walmart and also 2 years old. It was a bad battery.

I haven't read all the replies, but my trusted mechanic claims that he has never seen a starter die from old age on a Toyota or Honda. We had our 2002 Toyota sequoia die in the driveway a couple of times over the years and after failing to jump or recharge the battery we had it towed to the mechanic certainly thinking it was the starter and viola always the battery.

 

[ERD50]

I read it as the car was at idle as in not running but just sitting there. If that's the case then it was probably jut a bad choice of a word. Should have said "not running" or something similar.

Ah, that could be, but that bad choice of words leads to misunderstanding, and someone would probably read it the same as I did. After all, we are talking about engines, and 'idle' is a specific and common term to describe an engine condition. And it makes sense in context because alternator output does vary with engine speed (but should still be able to maintain that higher voltage at idle).

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

I haven't read all the replies, but my trusted mechanic claims that he has never seen a starter die from old age on a Toyota or Honda. We had our 2002 Toyota sequoia die in the driveway a couple of times over the years and after failing to jump or recharge the battery we had it towed to the mechanic certainly thinking it was the starter and viola always the battery.

DW had a rather spectacular starter failure in her old van several decades ago (this doesn't counter your story, starters are pretty reliable, it just triggered this memory).

About 5 miles from home, she said the car started making a very loud whirring noise when she was going ~ 50 mph. We got it towed, and the mechanic had to replace the starter. He said it had flown apart, and he'd never seen anything like it.

We assume the solenoid/clutch got activated/stuck, so the engine would have spun that motor about 10 to 15 times faster than it would during starting, so it just flew apart!


-ERD50

 

[JRon]

So right there you have contradicted yourself. A car that is idling is 'running' and the alternator is charging it, so 12.4V is not in the range of 13.5 - 14.7 V.

-ERD50

I didn’t say idling - I said idle. What I meant was not running. Poor choice of word use on my part, but the statement is true.

 

[finnski1]

Ah, that could be, but that bad choice of words leads to misunderstanding, and someone would probably read it the same as I did. After all, we are talking about engines, and 'idle' is a specific and common term to describe an engine condition. And it makes sense in context because alternator output does vary with engine speed (but should still be able to maintain that higher voltage at idle).

-ERD50

I agree with you Just wanted to point out what he may have meant. Probably better if I just stayed out of it and let him explain.

 

[street]

No diagnoses yet?

 

[ERD50]

I didn’t say idling - I said idle. What I meant was not running. Poor choice of word use on my part, but the statement is true.

OK, true with that clarity. But 'idle' also infers 'idling', as in you adjust the "idle screw" or "set the idle" on an old carburetor.

And as I mentioned earlier, a low battery might give a > 12.4 reading if you had recently been running the engine or had it on a charger. It can take hours to settle to its resting voltage (which can be used to estimate SOC).

-ERD50

 

[rk911]

you can easily check the status of the battery cells using a simple battery hydrometer. and a proper load test for an automotive battery takes longer than 15-minutes.

 

[Graybeard]

batteries very often fail in extreme temperatures, hot or cold, so my bet is on the battery having a bad cell since it's July. 2 years for a lot of Wal-Mart batteries is not unusual anymore. Either that or you may have an accessory of some kind that is drawing the battery down. Look for glove box lights, interior lights, trunk lights, etc. Starters can die suddenly on rare occasion but usually give warning signs before they fail.

If you do this, and it is worth a shot cuz you may have a short that is drawing a tiny amount of current that is draining the battery, do it at night in as dark a location as possible. I had a short in a tail light, you'd never see it in daylight, but at night I could see the left tail light barely illuminated!

If you have a battery tender maybe you can get the battery back up to par, they aren't expensive ($30 Battery Tender Jr at Walmart online... yes I know Walmart ) is handy to have for any battery that sits like a lawn tractor over winter or a car you don't drive in winter (if you have winters that are cold and snowy that is).

Not hearing clicks when turning the key on means the solenoid is not engaging the gear on the starter motor but that does not mean the solenoid or starter are bad, they may be but a weak battery will not have the power to even do that.

 

[Graybeard]

Could still be a battery problem, but based on what I've read in the above post(s) and if it's a "higher speed whine sound" that stops when you move the key from start to run, then it sounds like a starter problem. e.g. Starter gear drive not engaging with the flywheel. Typical starter and solenoid pictured below, although some cars don't have the solenoid attached to the starter, as pictured below... In anycase it's an easy fix for anyone that has a little mechanical ability, (typically a 30 to 45 min job) if that turns out to be your problem... Good luck, and of course YMMV

I missed that. But what is a whine? If you hear a high pitch spinning sound that is fairly sound not subtle it is the starter spinning but not engaging the flywheel and that would mean you need a new starter, typically the solenoid comes attached to the starter so you get both.

 

[Out-to-Lunch]

you can easily check the status of the battery cells using a simple battery hydrometer. and a proper load test for an automotive battery takes longer than 15-minutes.

I have not owned a flooded battery for a long, long, time. And my cars are model years 1995, 1999, and 2015.

 

[ncbill]

jump it off if possible & drive to the nearest chain auto parts store if the OP doesn't already have an independent mechanic...the store can quick-test battery & alternator (don't know why everyone's fixated on the starter instead of the alternator)

 

[retire-early]

Update.

I took the battery again into Walmart.
They had agreed to a pro-rated refund when I called over the phone.

They tested it again with a different battery tester, and the battery tested good.
They would not give me a new battery replacement.

They spent 45 minutes (!) figuring out how to override their system to give me the refund.
The system wasn't set up to give a pro-rated refund at 22 months.
Full refund yes. Pro-rated refund no.
They ended up doing a return without a receipt.
$81 refunded in cash.

I went to Advance Auto Parts and bought a DieHard Gold for $200.

I will be installing the new battery this afternoon.

Stay tuned.

 

[easysurfer]

Thanks retire-early for the update as the suspense was killing me .

Did Advance Auto Parts do any testing to confirm that you just needed a new and better battery?

You should feel good that you did get the $81 refunded. You are probably better off getting a battery not from Walmart.

When I had my Walmart experience, they too said that their battery tested good. But that was the problem as going to a different place, different battery and no more issue.

 

[Aerides]

So hmm you have a new battery, but you still don't know if that's the issue? Oh well I guess the next chapter is later on today...

 

[finnski1]

So hmm you have a new battery, but you still don't know if that's the issue? Oh well I guess the next chapter is later on today...

 

[Car-Guy]

Thanks retire-early for the update as the suspense was killing me .

I love troubleshooting such problems over the Internet with minimal info... I've seen some weird things in my troubleshooting lifetime so I don't discount many things... The most frustrating things (problems) to me, are the ones that are caused by more than one component failure at the same time... That can drive you nuts. Sometimes the second (or even third) problem are self induced while troubleshooting... Been there and done that, more than once. As for the OP, the solution could be just about anything that's been discussed on this thread so far... Some just more likely than others, based on the initial "scenario" but just about anything is possible...

 

[38Chevy454]

Make sure to clean the battery cable connections. The new battery should be good, but your old cables need the connection area clean as well. Simple wire brush battery terminal tool does the job, but if you don't have that, careful scraping the cable surface can be better than nothing.

 

[Car-Guy]

I am going to request that the mods close this thread - some of this advice is dangerously ill informed. The OP has got what they need to know - take it to a pro or experienced DIY'er.

-ERD50

Not the first time I've seen dangerous suggestions made in auto repair (and other repair/troubleshooting) threads. ~"Caveat emptor


A good man always knows his limitations!

 

[easysurfer]

Not the first time I've seen dangerous suggestions made in auto repair (and other repair/troubleshooting) threads. ~"Caveat emptor"

What, ERD50 suggests to close this thread?

Heck, this is the most exciting thread of the forum .

 

[Car-Guy]

What, ERD50 suggests to close this thread?

Heck, this is the most exciting thread of the forum .