It's DNA turtles all the way down!!

If one of your parents has a small number of genes that are more common in Native Americans, that doesn't mean that all their children should necessarily inherit those genes. I don't think you would say "either all have it, or none of us have it" if we were talking about the genes for blue eyes or the ones that make cilantro taste like soap or the ones that cause a disease like Tay Sachs.

I suspect that the 23andMe algorithm will only identify Native American ancestry if certain thresholds and combinations exist. You may have a few markers that occur in Native Americans and Asians, so it's inconclusive whether you have ancestors from one or both areas; while a sibling has a few more markers, some of which are the same as yours and others of which occur in Native Americans and Africans, so the sibling is more likely to get a probability score for being of Native American descent.
It's obviously a crap shoot. I'm convinced we have the same parents, grand parents, all the way back to forever, yet one sib of 4 was told there was native American in her genome and three didn't get the indicator. I still say it's got to be wrong for one or three.


Based on the fact that our grandparents were mostly immigrants or born of recent immigrants, I'd say the ID of native American is wrong, otherwise, it would make up a bigger fraction and all of us would have it.
 
DNA in children is a random selection of DNA bits from each parent, so it’s possible for one child to inherit something from the parents that the other three did not.
 
Given grandparents that were from Europe, though, what are the chances of a native American many generations back that would contribute enough to get detected in one sib. I think error is the most likely explanation.
 
So do they really call everyone "cousin?" Why not just use "degree of cosanguinity?"

I think Ancestry does it to be simple. But it often confuses people. They have categories of

Self/twin -- This is if you have tested twice for yourself or you have an identical twin.

Parent/child -- This really is one of those two things. It is the clearest category.

Immediate Family - This is basically full siblings, including fraternal twins

Close Family - On the match page Ancestry says the possible range is close-family - 1st cousins. If you click on what does this mean it shows examples of aunt/uncle, niece/nephew or grandparent. It doesn't show as example a half-sibling which people in this category often are!

People routine see that range of close family to 1st cousins and assume someone in this category is a first cousin when in reality the only way a 1st cousin is in this category is if they are double first cousins (sisters married brothers).

I myself had a half-sister turn up in this category and I did not initially realize that she was a half-sister! On genetic genealogy pages, people routinely assume that someone in this category is a cousin when it is really an unknown half-sibling....

First Cousin - Basically these are people with a DNA cM range of which encompasses a fairly wide range. People at the low end could be 1st cousin once removed. This does include half-aunt/uncle or half-niece/nephew or great grandparent/child

Second Cousin - This really includes a variety of different things as you start having lots of possibilities that fall within this centimorgan range. For example, on my result one of "second cousin" matches is a 1st cousin, once removed. Another is a 2nd cousin/once removed. You can also have a 1/2 first cousin, etc.

Third Cousin - Again, even more variability. Someone in this range absolutely won't be a first cousin. But they could be a variety of different types of removed cousins and could be half second cousins, etc. Also -- this is important -- about 10% of the time you do not share DNA with someone who actually is your third cousin. I have a proven third cousin who is absolutely the son of his mother and full sibling to his siblings. I share DNA with the mother and his siblings, but not him. He falls in that 10%.

Fourth cousin -- More of the same but with fewer DNA. If it is possible to share no DNA with a 3rd cousin it is entirely possible that someone who is a third cousin will fall in this category on Ancestry. And some more distant cousins fall in here.

Distant cousin -- I don't look too much at these matches. I have over 100,000 distant cousins on Ancestry. These matches are more likely to be by chance than the closer matches.

It's obviously a crap shoot. I'm convinced we have the same parents, grand parents, all the way back to forever, yet one sib of 4 was told there was native American in her genome and three didn't get the indicator. I still say it's got to be wrong for one or three.

It could be wrong it doesn't have to be wrong, particularly if the share of NA DNA is small. It could be that the rest of you just didn't inherit it. As mentioned above I have a documented 3rd cousin (documented because I have seen his DNA match to his mother and siblings). He is the son of his mother and full-sibling to his siblings as proven by DNA. He is my third cousin. I share DNA with his siblings and his mother ... but not with him. Nothing is wrong. He just didn't inherit from his mom the part of her DNA that I share with her. His siblings did.
 
Inheritance of DNA is not random. For example, a son inherits Y from father intact, and typically a recombined x from Mom. Daughter gets one intact x from father and recombined x from mother. Recombination of x from Mom is very interesting. I believe the tendency is ends of one X combine with the middle of the other x. However, this is not 100% true.
http://www.genie1.com.au/blog/63-x-dna
 
My first cousin and I share two grandparents and 4 great grandparents. Those 4 grandparents came from a small town in Sicily, and emigrated to Western NY State in the late 1800s.

My dad and her dad are brothers. My dad and I went to the small town in Sicily and checked baptismal records, and found that the families went back many many generations. Since Sicily's history is one of being a melting pot of invading cultures, from the Greeks, Africa, Iberia, the Norse invaded, not to mention down the boot of Italy and across the thin Strait of Messina, we are likely to find just about anything in a DNA sample.

My cousin did one of these and found she was only "16% Sicilian"...What does that even mean. We know half of her DNA comes from blood that spent generations upon generations in Sicily. At what point does it become Sicilian? And they found she was 20% "Eastern European", what does that mean? Does it mean that segment of her ancestry was somehow sealed off from the influences of other migrating cultures? No, I don't think it means that. That area was even less isolated from marauding bands than Sicily.

So what are we really identifying when chop up our DNA influence into little pieces like this?
 
Some long lost relative who does this professionally manually tracked my father's side of the family back to the 16th century. Has a whole father-to-son list from there right down to me and my brother.

Easy in a way because our last name is a made-up name and it all tracks back to one guy who changed it in 1596. Unlike a Smith or Johnson, everyone with my last name is related back to that one guy.

Knowing that side of the family though (we identify with mom's side), I'm a bit nervous about finding out "who did what" back in the late 1800's and early 1900's. I want to keep my image of saintly great-grandma intact and don't need any unknown 'cousins' showing up in my life.

Mom's side goes back to the Mayflower and then some.
 
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Pretty sure my grandmothers are saints. My one grandfather? Uh, well, I would not be surprised if I have unknown half-cousins out there.

I have no intent on finding out. So far, my cousins from that side don't want to put their DNA online either. I suspect their kids will or already have.
 
Some long lost relative who does this professionally manually tracked my father's side of the family back to the 16th century. Has a whole father-to-son list from there right down to me and my brother.

Easy in a way because our last name is a made-up name and it all tracks back to one guy who changed it in 1596. Unlike a Smith or Johnson, everyone with my last name is related back to that one guy.

Knowing that side of the family though (we identify with mom's side), I'm a bit nervous about finding out "who did what" back in the late 1800's and early 1900's. I want to keep my image of saintly great-grandma intact and don't need any unknown 'cousins' showing up in my life.

Mom's side goes back to the Mayflower and then some.

Pretty sure my grandmothers are saints. My one grandfather? Uh, well, I would not be surprised if I have unknown half-cousins out there.

I have no intent on finding out. So far, my cousins from that side don't want to put their DNA online either. I suspect their kids will or already have.

totally agree. Some puzzles are best left unsolved. My dad uncovered a bit of family history that included an ancestor killing his FIL...it was something the family had done its best to bury for a few generations. The fact that it was ruled "justifiable" tells you something about the character of the man who was killed...all stuff nobody really needed to know over a hundred years later...
 
It could be wrong it doesn't have to be wrong, particularly if the share of NA DNA is small. It could be that the rest of you just didn't inherit it.
Maybe I'm just being dense, but I can't see how one of my siblings could possibly have a tiny fraction (I think it was less than 1%) of Native American DNA given 2 of 4 grandparents weren't born in the US, and the other 2 came here as kids. How would a Native American get over to Europe in the early 1600's (far enough back to justify the small slice found)? I guess it's possible that somebody came over to the colonies, got knocked-up and the result of that is my great, great, great, great grand parent. But almost all of the other 63 were Scandinavian, and I'm not sure how many of them were visiting the colonies for a romp with Native Americans. So yes, under the NA romp scenario, one sib could have a sliver of NA DNA and the rest of us didn't inherit it. I just don't see that as very likely.
 
This past weekend's WSJ article on two sisters who found out they were half-sisters (Uh, thanks mom?) and that they both had a half-brother (Uh, thanks, dad?) was interesting to say the least.

It seems there are now web-sites and Facebook groups devoted to adult children who have found out that 'Daddy' is not their biological father. The results are often very damaging to the family.

One has to be careful. Privacy is becoming a very precious commodity.
 
Maybe I'm just being dense, but I can't see how

You're taking the results too seriously. The ancestry analysis they provide is only approximate ("fuzzy" in the opinion of an amateur genealogist relative of mine), and there is a margin of error built into every part of it.

Just as an example, people of purely Irish descent are always finding bits of Scandinavian DNA in their reports, and the percentages go up or down every time the company "refines" its database. Those Vikings really got around back in the Middle Ages, so it's perfectly reasonable, but too far back to be certain of much.

Same thing for Native American. They can find bits (SNPs) of DNA that are characteristic of Native Americans, but only to a certain level of confidence. They can easily apply to other populations as well, just at a lower confidence level.
 
You're taking the results too seriously.
Or maybe just the opposite. My premise from my first post has been that the result that my sibling got (a small fraction of NA DNA) is simply wrong. But I kept hearing "yeah, but maybe only one of your siblings inherited it". Occam's Razor applies.
 
Maybe I'm just being dense, but I can't see how one of my siblings could possibly have a tiny fraction (I think it was less than 1%) of Native American DNA given 2 of 4 grandparents weren't born in the US, and the other 2 came here as kids.

You say 2 of 4 grandparents weren't born in the US and the other 2 came as kids. So does that mean all 4 grandparents were not born in the US?

Anyway, I mostly addressing that the facts some inherited a specific piece of DNA and the other siblings didn't doesn't prove an error. That is common. So, let's say that there is a NA ancestor several generations OK. It would prove nothing to for one sibling to not get that piece of DNA. In other words, many people who think they have NA ancestry and think they don't because of DNA tests don't show it could be wrong. They may have an NA ancestor and it not show up in the DNA test if far enough back. So, the fact some siblings don't get the DNA ancestry if a small percentage doesn't mean that the one who did doesn't have it (it would be different if it was a huge percentage).

Now -- having said all that, ethnicity estimates from DNA tests are not very accurate. They are getting better as more and more people test. NA estimates are particularly inaccurate as many NA tribes discourage members from testing so the database is actually not as large. Very easily that less than 1% NA could be in fact wrong. For example, when I first tested at Ancestry I was told that I had less than 1% Polynesian. In more recent refinements at Ancestry that has disappeared from my results. Yes, if all 4 grandparents are immigrants to the US from Europe (i.e. not from South America) then it seems that this could be an error. That said, it is possible. For example, a great great grandparent could have come to North America or South America and had a child with someone with NA ancestry. The child could have then gone to Europe. Immigration does work both ways. I am NOT saying that is likely but possible. But, if you look at the likelihoods any testing company will tell you that if a result is below 1% there is a possibility that the true amount is zero.
 
Maybe I'm just being dense, but I can't see how one of my siblings could possibly have a tiny fraction (I think it was less than 1%) of Native American DNA given 2 of 4 grandparents weren't born in the US, and the other 2 came here as kids. How would a Native American get over to Europe in the early 1600's (far enough back to justify the small slice found)? I guess it's possible that somebody came over to the colonies, got knocked-up and the result of that is my great, great, great, great grand parent. But almost all of the other 63 were Scandinavian, and I'm not sure how many of them were visiting the colonies for a romp with Native Americans. So yes, under the NA romp scenario, one sib could have a sliver of NA DNA and the rest of us didn't inherit it. I just don't see that as very likely.
I'm not understanding all of your particular circumstances, but I've found there are reasonable counter-explanations for DNA guesses. In the case of a small sliver (I call it a guess):
1) It could be a low-confidence guess from the company.
2) Could be an anomaly. If you test at another company, you may not see a particular result.
3) It is correct. GEDmatch has several tools that can be used to compare an autosomal uploaded dna kit to world populations.

Search for FTDNA migration mtDNA, in google images. You'll see a number of maps that show migration (from finds, etc.). There are possibilities where migration diverged from scandinavian, and ended up in NA. So, an alternative hypothesis is that you and siblings carry varying amounts of such DNA, and it does not have to be carried in two siblings equally. There are many articles written about this. They start with "Why is my siblings dna different than mine."
 
After getting many notices and inquiries about 3rd and 4th cousins that went nowhere, I finally got a real one.
It was a young lady, whose grandfather was the son of my Dad;s brother. He really was my cousin.
OK, that is interesting, but now what?? i am sure she has no interest in staying in contact with me, nor do I with her.
We are separated by a continent and 2 generations.
 
This past weekend's WSJ article on two sisters who found out they were half-sisters (Uh, thanks mom?) and that they both had a half-brother (Uh, thanks, dad?) was interesting to say the least.

It seems there are now web-sites and Facebook groups devoted to adult children who have found out that 'Daddy' is not their biological father. The results are often very damaging to the family.

One has to be careful. Privacy is becoming a very precious commodity.

Back in the 70s, when I was having babies, mothers with RH negative blood were given Rhogam to prevent the formation of antibodies. My husband is also RH negative so I questioned the need. My physician responded, "We know the mother but not the father, every mother with RH negative blood receives it." :facepalm: I hadn't considered that possibility.
 
Back in the 70s, when I was having babies, mothers with RH negative blood were given Rhogam to prevent the formation of antibodies. My husband is also RH negative so I questioned the need. My physician responded, "We know the mother but not the father, every mother with RH negative blood receives it." :facepalm: I hadn't considered that possibility.

ha ha ha ha .... So was your husband in the room at the time ??
Did he UNDERSTAND what was being said ?? :LOL::LOL::LOL:
or maybe it's ;) :eek:
 
After getting many notices and inquiries about 3rd and 4th cousins that went nowhere, I finally got a real one.
It was a young lady, whose grandfather was the son of my Dad;s brother. He really was my cousin.
OK, that is interesting, but now what?? i am sure she has no interest in staying in contact with me, nor do I with her.
We are separated by a continent and 2 generations.
Once you get 2x removed, there's little in common. Even one removal is difficult. I have a first cousin once removed who is a well known actor. It makes fun party conversation, but that's about it because we have little in common, even though I was pretty close (as far as cousins go) to the parent, my first cousin.
 
After getting many notices and inquiries about 3rd and 4th cousins that went nowhere, I finally got a real one.
It was a young lady, whose grandfather was the son of my Dad;s brother. He really was my cousin.
OK, that is interesting, but now what?? i am sure she has no interest in staying in contact with me, nor do I with her.
We are separated by a continent and 2 generations.

My DH is really interested in genealogy and tracing his family tree. For many people like him where you go with it are things like comparing trees and hoping the other person may have some information about a particular ancestor that you don't have. DH has often gotten good information from the more distant cousins. And, in some instances he has researched a line more than the other person and can provide information.

In my experience people usually test DNA for one of 3 primary reasons:

1. Genealogy to help find more information about ancestors and to solve brick walls in the tree -- These are usually people who know who their immediate relatives are. They are more interested in their matches who might help them to fill out their tree or solve a brick wall. For example, I am helping someone right now who has an ancestor (a woman) of a particular name and last name (which is fairly common). We can't find this ancestors parents (ancestor was born in 1870s as I recall). But this cousin of mine has several matches who all descend from a particular person with this last name. That gives a clue of where to look to try to find more information. Without DNA we would still have no idea of where to took.

2. Ethnicity/heritage -- This is what Ancestry advertises on TV. And, many people test for this reason. It is actually the least accurate part of the testing. But, lots of people test just for this reason.

3. To solve unknown parentage questions -- This is me! I tested to try to find my birthfather. After trying for many years using traditional search means -- 20 years after I found my birthmother and gained lots of information about my birthfather -- I found him in a matter of hours after I started looking at my DNA results. It isn't just adoptees, though. I've helped a couple of people whose parent was an adoptee. Or someone whose mother was unmarried and they never knew who their father was. Or a grandfather who was informally adopted and no one knows who his parents were, etc. DNA helping has revolutionized this kind of searching. This is the area that I am most personally interested in.

Given the family rumors regarding both my father's possible infidelity and my paternal grandfather's likely infidelity (with his own sister-in-law!), I won't touch geneological research into my family with a ten-foot-pole. Better to let sleeping dogs lie.

Some of this depends on how you look at it and from what point of view.. When my adoptive mom was 92 there was a sale at Ancestry and I asked if she wanted to test. She wasn't interested in genealogy and she knew who her parents were. But she ended up testing. She had some mild interest in the ethnicity. But the primary reason was to perhaps be able to help someone who was in category 3 find who they were looking for.

The day I got back her results, she got a message from someone who's father tested fairly closely to my mom (the father had DNA tested but had recently died). He was an adoptee. He knew who his birthmother was (she was deceased) but had no idea who his bio father was. He was clearly related to my mom on his father's side. Looking at my mom's tree and census records and talking to her it was fairly easy to narrow his dad down to one of two first cousins of hers (both now deceased). She and I were both happy for her to be able to solve this for this man's daughter and for her to finally complete her search (well, almost complete -- she still had to narrow down which brother it was.
 
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Yeah, after reading that WSJ article there's no way am I ever going to get tested.

Dad spent most of his military career overseas...& given the behavior that caused his divorce from mom I don't want to know if I've got any half-siblings out there.
 
Sex education and contraception have come a long way since my parents’ and grandparents’ generations—trysting outside one’s marriage had a higher risk of pregnancy than it would today, I imagine, so not surprising IMO there are unexpected relations and relatives being uncovered with DNA comparisons.
 
After getting many notices and inquiries about 3rd and 4th cousins that went nowhere, I finally got a real one.
It was a young lady, whose grandfather was the son of my Dad;s brother. He really was my cousin.
OK, that is interesting, but now what?? i am sure she has no interest in staying in contact with me, nor do I with her.
We are separated by a continent and 2 generations.

I learned it is the socialization, the family gatherings, etc that create the bond. Without those events, everyone is just somebody else.
 
Sex education and contraception have come a long way since my parents’ and grandparents’ generations—trysting outside one’s marriage had a higher risk of pregnancy than it would today, I imagine, so not surprising IMO there are unexpected relations and relatives being uncovered with DNA comparisons.

Let's also remember that the police now use these 'connections' on old cold cases. They send in the crime scene's DNA and pretend to be a legit owner.

A cousin 4X removed could be some 'person of interest' from years ago and you could suddenly find yourself unwittingly involved.

I've been tempted from time to time to learn about my very distant past but this unknown seems to be my last area of privacy.
 
Let's also remember that the police now use these 'connections' on old cold cases. They send in the crime scene's DNA and pretend to be a legit owner.

A cousin 4X removed could be some 'person of interest' from years ago and you could suddenly find yourself unwittingly involved.

I've been tempted from time to time to learn about my very distant past but this unknown seems to be my last area of privacy.

So this should be a motivation for all of us to get tested, to clean up the backlog of serial killers who are hiding among us at family gatherings. That's why I always am the first to volunteer to carve the turkey, I don't want to be sitting there while someone else holds that great big knife :eek:
 
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