Surprised and Concerned

[Gumby]

That expectation is completely alien to my experience. I honestly can't understand that mindset.

When I was young there was never any question about paying for my college. On a bus driver's salary in NYC we had way too many meals consisting of onion sandwiches to even consider it.

Luckily, I was able to go to a local college because I got a full scholarship and could live at home and commute by subway (two hours each way). But my only other choice would have been to enlist in the military. I had a very good friend who did, and after his Army hitch used the GI Bill to go to college. We have both done just fine in our lives.

I hear you. My parents felt that their job was done once we graduated from high school. That's when they expected us to leave home, and we all did. I joined the Navy to get a college education.

 

[redduck]

What's your experience? Do you feel like most people you encounter have a handle on retirement or is that the exception to the rule?

To answer your question, most everybody I know has successfully retired. Some retired early, some retired "on time" but that was of their own choosing. Some continue to work into their seventies, but once again, that's what they want to do. I retired at 70--my choice and I considered myself fortunate that I was able to do so. Most of these people made successful career choices, were relatively wise with their money. I don't think any of them would be upset if someone said to them, "You are so lucky."

 

[ncbill]

I have a co-worker who is 53 and plans to retire at 59. He said he should have over $150,000 and have his house paid off so he'll be good to go. I don't want to sound preachy but I just said "you make around $50K/yr and save 10% which means you spend $45K. If you retire at 59 with $150K(no pension), your money is gone by the time you can start early SS. Early SS for someone who averaged less than $40K/yr will be maybe $15K/yr. How will you live on that?"

I have an older relative who retired (not by choice) in much the same financial situation around "normal" retirement age, though they had already taken SS at 62.

Now, less than a decade later, the savings are gone and they have maybe $2000/month in SS as their only income, plus a home suffering from substantially deferred maintenance.

I will be meeting with them this week to discuss their finances, but I strongly suspect the most realistic option involves selling the house & moving in with one of their kids.

 

[FreeBear]

"Fallen victim?" Maybe we savers are the victims? I am sometimes envious of people that live for the day. I try not to be judgmental because if they do drop dead tomorrow at 55 or 60 or whatever then I would say they did things right and I am the sucka!

We have a wonderful "live for the moment" friend. Very generous, and funny on vacations, while the money lasts. Hard w*rker, but big spender; doesn't see any point in saving since there will always be more (credit card) bills...

We do use him as a counter-example for my tendency to plan and perhaps obsess about what can go wrong. He'll probably be living just on SS when he can't bring in any more money, and he constantly stresses about "not having enough". Still, who knows what life holds. Perhaps he is making a good decision if health or life itself disappears tomorrow.

In overly optimistic moments, I claim that I have a 40 year financial plan. Even if this is true, the sober reality is that I have no idea if DW and I will even be in shape to enjoy most, let alone all of these years. It's humbling, very humbling...

So we're living in a culture that didn't exist even 100 years ago, let alone 100,000 years or a million. It shouldn't be surprising that most people's brains are simply not wired to plan ahead. We're wired to figure out where the next meal is coming from and how to avoid being a tiger's next meal.

The 22-year-old who has the foresight to start saving from his/her first job for retirement is truly the evolutionary outlier.

Then there were engineers who were unhappy at w*rk... As a young engineer, I learned to look ahead into the future and assess and manage risk. Little did I know how much this would help me get out the the game as an "over the hill" burnt out engineer 2 decades later.

I got out early and comfortably due to the usual lucky breaks (parents, education, mental & physical health, career, amazing DW, etc). One seemingly unlucky break was that I was unhappy about some aspects of my career early on and couldn't find a way to get to somethings better. This got me thinking about finding a way out, simply another engineering problem to solve with a decades-long timeline and huge risk. I finally got out 15 years later, and so far so good ...

 

[Danmar]

+1 I completely agree! But there will always be threads like this. For me it's easier to just post a new thread about something that I would rather be discussing, than to get others to stop discussing what they want to discuss.

Yes, you are probably right. Getting a little cranky in my old age. Have found there is less and less that still interests me here. New people keep joining, but, not surprisingly, tend to talk about the same things. C’est la vie.
I should probably take a break for a while.

 

[Oma_here]

Credit, in and of its self, of course, is not the problem. Not many of us would be able, for instance, to put enough cash together to purchase a (reliable) car or a house outright... well, perhaps with a wise choice of parents that would be possible.

The education system is where the blame lies. Give the number of classes you personal took up through high school that this was spoken of... or, for that matter, at post HS levels.

(Please don't make this a political issue.)

Now I did not grow up in the US so I don't know what the educational system was here twenty, thirty, or more years ago, but did they really use to have in depth financial education ? From what I see around my I rather doubt it. Maybe we like to blame schools for what really is a failure of oarents to teach their children basic financial skills as well as the art of waiting for something you want until you can afford it.

 

[athena53]

Yes, you are probably right. Getting a little cranky in my old age. Have found there is less and less that still interests me here. New people keep joining, but, not surprisingly, tend to talk about the same things. C’est la vie.
I should probably take a break for a while.

It happens on every Board. When I was planning my wedding years ago, the same Qs kept popping up on TheKnot. Should I change my name? Joint finances or separate? In FlyerTalk, the "hot button" topics include Passengers of Size, overhead bin hogs, kids on planes and whether or not it's rude to recline your seat. If I'm moved to add something, I do. If I'm tired of the topic I skip it.

As for financial education in the US- there's not much but so much of what I see here is more attitude than knowing how to calculate compound interest or read a financial statement. I learned LBYM, saving for goals and avoiding credit card debt from my parents.

 

[Nemo2]

If I'm moved to add something, I do. If I'm tired of the topic I skip it.

Amen. Not that I have [-]much[/-] anything of value to say, (other than offering strictly personal experiences about travel, and perhaps life), but I'll chime in on some topics anyway and ignore others.

DW & I share an I.D. on Cruise Critic, (although it's morphed into primarily me), and some of the topics raised make one wonder if the initiator has ever crossed the road alone. 'Trivial' falls far short of describing them.

 

[Nightcap]

In talking to colleagues about ER, a common theme among my male peers (engineers, project managers) is that the guys who have been divorced cannot ER because their finances were set back so much. Then there are the guys with multiple divorces who are still working past 65. I'm sure it is a similar story for women.

The late Peter Mayles (author of Year in Provence) wrote a wonderful series of essays exploring the pleasures of the very rich, and whether they are indeed better. (They are.) They're collected into a book called Acquired Tastes. The last one, the most expensive indulgence of all, is the Mistress. She can utterly ruin even the richest man.

It's a lot easier just to stay in love with the one you married. Fortunately for me (and my early retirement), the Unindicted Co-Conspirator makes that easy.

 

[athena53]

DW & I share an I.D. on Cruise Critic, (although it's morphed into primarily me), and some of the topics raised make one wonder if the initiator has ever crossed the road alone. 'Trivial' falls far short of describing them.

Ah, that's another one with recurring "hot threads". Should I try and smuggle alcohol on board? Can I make my flight home if it departs 3 hours after we arrive in port? Should I book excursions independently or through the cruise line? Can I get good deals on diamonds in the port stores in the Caribbean?

I try to be gentle- at least they're asking for information. If the responses can keep them from making newbie mistakes, it's all good.

 

[Moemg]

Where I live in Florida is really a mixed neighborhood from million dollar houses on the water all the way to a senior mobile park .We have gotten to know a lot of the people and the happiest are the mobile park residents . They are mostly living on SS and small pensions with tiny or no savings but they are having a great life .They are retired golfing, playing shuffleboard , doing water aerobics and just having fun. Everybody that is not loaded are not miserable . They are just living their life with their means.I also frequently see older women working in our local department store.A lot of them are widows and need to get out and talk to people . It takes me forever to check out because of a long conversation about clothes and where I am from.They do not seem miserable only lonely.

 

[Moemg]

Amen.

DW & I share an I.D. on Cruise Critic, (although it's morphed into primarily me), and some of the topics raised make one wonder if the initiator has ever crossed the road alone. 'Trivial' falls far short of describing them.

My favorites are the ones that go on and on about formal night and people not dressing appropriately.

 

[pj.mask]

I think the education system is fine. You typically have the option to take more advanced classes. If you can take calculus you should be able to compute interest.

I think it is more of a society/genetic issue. What I have seen in engineering are many ‘living for today’ can often understand the math but they don’t have any interest in sacrificing to make it happen (there are some with really hairball ideas too.. one economist tried to convince me to bury gold coins in my yard for when PRESIDENT ruins the economy.)

I think the current generation does expect to be given challenges and rewarded for them. What the older generation fails to grasp is how to appropriately respond - simple recognition is a lot cheaper than compensation and may get you just as far. You can cast the blame game all you want between the generations but as the last page of posts seem to confirm, similar accusations will likely reappear in 10, 20, 30, etc. years directed to the newcomers

 

[ndnguy822000]

It’s very common, I’m 35 and have more saved than my counterpart who have worked same job for more than 20’years. A while back there was a takeover for our company and the pension was no longer available so they offered to cash everyone out, my 55 year old conworkers wife convinced him that it was a good idea to cash out his 120k pension instead of rolling it over. They both make about 160k a year and he got literally HAMMERED with taxes and fees. It’s not that people DONT know it’s that people don’t give a **** until it’s too late. Decisions decisions decisions and people can’t control themselves or have married someone WORSE than them.

 

[Nemo2]

My favorites are the ones that go on and on about formal night and people not dressing appropriately.

Oh yeah! DW & I travel on ships to get to or from somewhere; it would appear, judging from the 'average' post there, that the vast majority view 'cruising' as an extended 'adult' sleepover where they get to play dress up and engage in childish games.

(We just look for the elusive snippet of actual information.)

 

[NoiseBoy]

A friend received a buy-out offer from his mega insurance corp last fall. He is just 55, and had not been planning on retiring so soon, but he had to consider the offer because it was also part of a reduction in workforce (of course.) He has a pension.

He is married with two kids who are both out of the house but still being covered by his megacorp HI plan. His spouse works part time. I forget the exact numbers, but the main reason he turned down the package was the cost of retiree HI. I guess the premiums for family coverage in retirement are a lot more than what he is currently paying while working.

 

[RonBoyd]

Maybe we like to blame schools for what really is a failure of oarents to teach their children basic financial skills as well as the art of waiting for something you want until you can afford it.

So the Blind (the subject of this thread) leading the Blind is your solution?

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

Don't want to drop names, but I know the "old lady" coming down the stairs in the stair lift. Even been to her house a few times. She was also in a Katy Perry video. She's never going to retire voluntarily. Good on her.

I worked with a couple of guys at my newspaper who were arts critics. One of them was on the job full time until he was approaching 80. He was collecting a paycheck when he died. The other guy was laid off in a staff shakeup well into his 70s. He went to work writing for another publication.

I suppose their identities were tied up in their work, but I think they also simply loved what they were doing and didn't want to give it up. Such people (and such jobs) do exist.

 

[Amethyst]

In the ad, D.J. Nana sure looks like she enjoys her work!

I suppose their identities were tied up in their work, but I think they also simply loved what they were doing and didn't want to give it up. Such people (and such jobs) do exist.

 

[Joylush]

"Fallen victim?" Maybe we savers are the victims? I am sometimes envious of people that live for the day. I try not to be judgmental because if they do drop dead tomorrow at 55 or 60 or whatever then I would say they did things right and I am the sucka!

My thoughts exactly. So many victims are victims of their own decision making.

I do remember losing a bit in the stock market in 2008. My carpenter commented about feeling lucky that he had nothing to invest so he didn't lose anything. It was a point to ponder for sure. I lost and he got full use of his money.

 

[tb001]

As others have said, I think the reasons are varied, but one of the things I haven't seen mentioned is the out of control expense ratios on many employer sponsered 401k plans. And the tendency for people to chose an actively managed target date plan. There have been a number of lawsuits about this recently, but even after complaining and switching plans, my company is still above where they should be.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that so many here are either engineers or have jobs that offered a pension. It's huge to be able to finish college with an undergrad degree that lets you step into a reasonably well paying job immediately. I was a science major, and thought that would set me up for a good career. Little did I know how low compensation would be! And if you need a grad degree, which many high paying fields demand now, that can really cut into key earning/savings years.

Couple that with people paying for kids education on the back end of life, and it being way more expensive than anyone expected 20 yrs ago, and it can really do a number on savings. My SIL and her husband have always made good money, but are in their 60s and now living with parents. It's insane and just frightening to think what will happen when they can't live with parents anymore. There was a lot of living beyond their means for sure, but a crazy amount of money spent on education.

 

[kcowan]

The last one, the most expensive indulgence of all, is the Mistress. She can utterly ruin even the richest man.

It's a lot easier just to stay in love with the one you married. Fortunately for me (and my early retirement), the Unindicted Co-Conspirator makes that easy.

Ironically, when I left my SAHM after the kids were long gone, friends said: "Why not take a lover?" and I said it is the way of life that I am escaping. Spending without consequence. I was determined to avoid that mistake again and I did.

Ah, that's another one with recurring "hot threads". Should I try and smuggle alcohol on board? Can I make my flight home if it departs 3 hours after we arrive in port? Should I book excursions independently or through the cruise line? Can I get good deals on diamonds in the port stores in the Caribbean?

I try to be gentle- at least they're asking for information. If the responses can keep them from making newbie mistakes, it's all good.

lmgtfy.com is the easiest way to handle that. But it gets old because there is an endless stream of them. Best to avoid the site entirely. Or be very selective about topics visited.

Couple that with people paying for kids education on the back end of life, and it being way more expensive than anyone expected 20 yrs ago, and it can really do a number on savings. My SIL and her husband have always made good money, but are in their 60s and now living with parents. It's insane and just frightening to think what will happen when they can't live with parents anymore. There was a lot of living beyond their means for sure, but a crazy amount of money spent on education.

Yes I think too many parents consider education of their kids to be their responsibility. Getting the kids educated to the extent of their desire/ability is a good objective. But taking it on is misguided without some skin in the game by them.

 

[Meadbh]

Oh yeah! DW & I travel on ships to get to or from somewhere; it would appear, judging from the 'average' post there, that the vast majority view 'cruising' as an extended 'adult' sleepover where they get to play dress up and engage in childish games.

I did a transatlantic cruise in 2016. It was the beginning of a 35 day, multi country European trip. One of the great advantages of FIRE is the ability to do slow travel. On the ship I met Floridians who were cruising for the 40th time and taking advantage of incredible bargains. They were sailing all the way to Rome, only to head straight for the airport to fly home.

 

[Nemo2]

They were sailing all the way to Rome, only to head straight for the airport to fly home.

And, having read their posts and temporarily studied them via 'passive acoustic observation methods', we've noted that many prefer to go from one venue to another en masse using 'private' transportation.......which, of course, doesn't come cheaply.

Civitavecchia, (as per your example), to Roma Termini is quick, easy, painless and enjoyable by train....for some of us......for others it's viewed as running the gauntlet and to be avoided at any cost.

 

[Meadbh]

And, having read their posts and temporarily studied them via 'passive acoustic observation methods', we've noted that many prefer to go from one venue to another en masse using 'private' transportation.......which, of course, doesn't come cheaply.

Civitavecchia, (as per your example), to Roma Termini is quick, easy, painless and enjoyable by train....for some of us......for others it's viewed as running the gauntlet and to be avoided at any cost.

I disembarked at Civitavecchia and took the train to Termini, connecting to the Frecciarossa to Firenze, where I had booked a Room with a View!