From that thread:
I wouldn't know about other people... note the use of the pronoun 'I'. Maybe we are the world, but I ain't.
Poll: influences? Spendthrift or frugal?
- Thread starter ladelfina
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From that thread:
I wouldn't know about other people... note the use of the pronoun 'I'. Maybe we are the world, but I ain't.
I am with you on this one, so there are at least two who found that growing up poor and then having money contributed to me going on a number of buying sprees.
ProspectiveBum
Full time employment: Posting here.
So much for my second career as a social scientist.
My post on my introvert/extrovert observation was poorly worded. When I wrote that "this often seems to be a determining factor", I was referring to Sue J's question on how 2 sibs from the same family could have turned out so different.
I do believe that in general extroverts will feel more social pressure to spend, which can explain why someone from a thrifty family would become a free-spender. There are no absolutes, though: DW has 2 sisters, both extroverts. One is an extreme spend-thrift, and the other is truly the most frugal person I know. Dang human beans, just when you think you got 'em figured out, they turn out to be all complex...
So you mentioned that if it wasn't for Greg that you probably never would have ER'ed... once you saw the light, did you find it easier to go back to your roots?
I did, although I'm still more talk and less walk than I could be. My mom told me that she made garbage soup this last weekend (long standing tradition I've mentioned before... she cooks and freezes meals for the month so she's only out one day a month. When it's time to clean out the freezer, everything that might go together does... through the food processor first if needed). Me, I at least save leftovers and mostly get through them but we still go out a fair amount.
Mom was always a coupon-clipper and would compare the coupons against the store brand and go on double-coupon days. Me, I go right for the organic isle and buy the brand that I know is consistantly what I want and I buy it as needed.
Mom would buy in bulk when things were on sale. We had to help with stock rotation... the rhythm was to go to the store, buy a lot, go home and then I'd get to put the new stuff in the back and bring the old stuff forward. We had everything sorted by type and we'd pick out what the veggie was with dinner based on what needed to be used. Now, I'm buying fresh or frozen, even if the canned can be had cheaper (a choice I make because I'm fortunate enough to be able to)
Still, some of what I learned and observed growing up has stuck with me. And, at least I have a role model of what a frugal lifestyle is supposed to look like. I'm guessing a spendthrift child of a spendthrift is repeating some mistakes because they don't know better.
I'm the first born. I'm the eldest by 7 years. I'm also a borderline extrovert (fwiw, Meyers-Briggs pegged me at just a few points this side on that scale... but I'm an introvert at heart I think [hard to explain, I hate people, but I love acting up]).
I can tell you without a doubt that I'm the most responsible of the three of us. However, I was the babysitter and I was the one working the earliest. Brother was the middle child... he's the most caring and thoughtful. He also had a bit of an identity crisis, I think. At first he wanted to follow in my footsteps career-wise, but I think he realized it wasn't for him. He's a paramedic now, which I think is way more rewarding and successful than what I do. Sis was adopted, so it's hard to say what's nature and nurture, but she's on her way to an MBA and a CPA.
Brother is a bit of a spendthrift but I've beat him over the head with money lessons quite a bit (my wife and I helped both of them out with college and, as a result, I felt it was only right that I assign homework as well). Sis doesn't have money to spend, but she's not overly frugal or spendthrift.. I'm guessing she understands the value of a dollar pretty good.
Hope that helps with your thesis! I'll see if I can get personality types for you.
I vote as a third, hence the 3 year period of insanity. Fortunately I recovered quickly.
hankster
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My parents grew up during the Depression and both developed a frugal nature early in life. They never earned a high income but were still able to minimize debt and save up for big ticket items. My frugality was abandoned for several years while I was young, earning a decent income and surrounded by friends and co-workers who were buying all the cool toys. Still, I always kept some emergency savings and contributed to the 401k (though not as much as I should have been.) I've now rediscovered my inner frugal nature as my wife and I prepare for ER.
CitricAcid
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Dang, my theory is out the window on this one!
On the other hand, my DH is also an introvert, but he has a mental block when it comes to money. He's the oldest sibling of five. In his family money was not talked about. Dad worked, Mom stayed at home. They had cars, food, electronics, traveled to see family, had an occasional vacation. But no one ever talked about money. Everything was just taken car of. No one got an allowance or learned to budget or plan. You just got what you asked for or needed, some got more if they asked for more or needed more.
As an adult he is very "hands off" about our family finances. It makes him uncomfortable and itchy. It's like a dyslexia for money. Very weird. It wasn't until I told him that he could retire in 2013 if we changed a few things and made a plan, that he forced himself to pay attention to our money. He still wants to run out of the room if I start talking about spreadsheets or interest rates or bank balances. But he's gotten better and tries to stay focused.
We've been doing a debt snowball since about March and I'd love to show him details. I remind him that the car loan will be paid off next month instead of in 2010 and that's his tolerance level. The details would not matter to him. I get a great sense of accomplishment each month and I have to celebrate it all by myself.
He's not dumb, he just finds money to be a topic to avoid. That's how I feel about football. But money is so personal, I wish he was interested.
I watch Dave Ramsey in the evening. DH would not come sit on the couch and watch with me, but I know he's listening. Ok, maybe not listening, he's hearing. He'll comment from another room about something on the show, like how the advice makes sense or about some funny comment.
As an adult he is very "hands off" about our family finances. It makes him uncomfortable and itchy. It's like a dyslexia for money. Very weird. It wasn't until I told him that he could retire in 2013 if we changed a few things and made a plan, that he forced himself to pay attention to our money. He still wants to run out of the room if I start talking about spreadsheets or interest rates or bank balances. But he's gotten better and tries to stay focused.
We've been doing a debt snowball since about March and I'd love to show him details. I remind him that the car loan will be paid off next month instead of in 2010 and that's his tolerance level. The details would not matter to him. I get a great sense of accomplishment each month and I have to celebrate it all by myself.
He's not dumb, he just finds money to be a topic to avoid. That's how I feel about football. But money is so personal, I wish he was interested.
I watch Dave Ramsey in the evening. DH would not come sit on the couch and watch with me, but I know he's listening. Ok, maybe not listening, he's hearing. He'll comment from another room about something on the show, like how the advice makes sense or about some funny comment.
Coach
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
I had both models, Mom was frugal and a good financial manager -- Dad was the opposite. They both influenced me, but I chose spendthrift/frugal since I think Dad had the greater influence on my behavior.
My sibs all turned out to be financially responsible too.
Coach
My sibs all turned out to be financially responsible too.
Coach
mickeyd
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
It does not surprise me that almost 57% voted frugal/frugal so far. This is a group of lifetime savers and passive investors who have a long-term view of investments.
I was raised by parents who had to scrape through the depression and ended up with 5 kids that they insisted on sending to Catholic schools even though the local schools in FL were not that bad. I learned from them that you save your $ and spend it on what you feel that you really need for the long term. All five of us have advanced degrees from excellent universities, so I guess the extra $ spent on schooling from grades 1-12 did not hurt and perhaps helped us.
To this day I believe in saving as much as possible and spending my money on what I believe will produce quality in the long term. A simple idea that developed me into a index investor who sleeps well at night, and occasionally in the daytime too.
I was raised by parents who had to scrape through the depression and ended up with 5 kids that they insisted on sending to Catholic schools even though the local schools in FL were not that bad. I learned from them that you save your $ and spend it on what you feel that you really need for the long term. All five of us have advanced degrees from excellent universities, so I guess the extra $ spent on schooling from grades 1-12 did not hurt and perhaps helped us.
To this day I believe in saving as much as possible and spending my money on what I believe will produce quality in the long term. A simple idea that developed me into a index investor who sleeps well at night, and occasionally in the daytime too.
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CuppaJoe
Moderator Emeritus
Didn't vote on this one as my models were probably equally mixed. Must have been about 30 when a friend observed, "you never spend anything!" Guess I was a bit retarded as I still was also doing the college habit of sitting cross-legged on the floor. After a few years I did learn to buy enough stuff to furnish an apt. and my clothes closet but now am back to not needing anything. Really really enjoy not going shopping.
A favorite role model I met as an adult owned a house but every time he got into Macy's to buy furniture, he would turn around and say, "I'd rather be golfing." And he would head out to the course.
OK, I'll go back and vote, "frugal."
A favorite role model I met as an adult owned a house but every time he got into Macy's to buy furniture, he would turn around and say, "I'd rather be golfing." And he would head out to the course.
OK, I'll go back and vote, "frugal."
mickeyd
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Can't believe that you talked yourself into voting after making your comments. Awesome!!
Are you part of the USA that is generally catorigized in political polls as "undecided"?
I always wondered who those folks were...
FANOFJESUS
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
My father was very frugal. When I got older, I knew what a real man he was. One that could sacrifice he own wants for the needs of his family. I work with alot of men that want some kind of dumb thing while thier family is on poor ground money wise. It makes me sad and I am a man.
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Goonie
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
I'm the last sibling out of three, and as far as frugality is concerned, I fell closest to the parental frugality tree. My other two sibling didn't even fall in the same orchard as our parents and myself!
unclemick
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Depression era parents - so voted frugal. Pretty much stayed frugal.
However -with hindsight - as standard of living drifted up over time - the level of frugal rose also - both my parents and myself. Always saved and invested but also spent more as time went.
Except for my glorious born again 'cheap bastardhood period.'
I think I'm sucessfully deprogramed and pretty much past that - and back to ordinary ho hum retirement frugal.
heh heh heh -
However -with hindsight - as standard of living drifted up over time - the level of frugal rose also - both my parents and myself. Always saved and invested but also spent more as time went.
Except for my glorious born again 'cheap bastardhood period.'
I think I'm sucessfully deprogramed and pretty much past that - and back to ordinary ho hum retirement frugal.
heh heh heh -
Going back to my roots makes me want to have a panic attack.
Meadbh
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The scientist in me thought: surely somebody has studied this! So I browsed on the Web of Science, using search terms like "frugal" (nothing); "spending" (nothing); "budget" (nothing relevant). "Money" yielded over 32,000 hits; combined with "family" and "materialism" it started to get close. Anyhow, here are the five most relevant articles I found:
Flouri, E. Exploring the relationship between mothers' and fathers' parenting practices and children's materialist values. Journal of Economic Psychology, 25 (6): 743-752 Dec 2004.
Abstract: Data on 2218 British secondary school age children were used to explore the relationship between parenting and materialism. A hierarchical multiple regression analysis carried out to explore the role of parenting in children's materialism showed that although father involvement was unrelated to materialism, mother's involvement was negatively and inter-parental conflict was positively related to child's materialism. Emotional and behavioural problems and goal-directedness were both positively associated with materialism in adolescents. Compared to girls boys scored higher in materialism. Age and materialism were positively related. Peer support was more strongly associated with children's materialism when both fathers' and mothers' involvement were low rather than high. Neither child's sex nor family structure moderated the relationship between parents' involvement and children's materialistic attitudes. (C) 2003 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved.
Banerjee, R (Banerjee, Robin); Dittmar, H (Dittmar, Helga). Individual differences in children's materialism: The role of peer relations. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 34 (1): 17-31 Jan 2008.
Abstract: Associations between materialism and peer relations are likely to exist in elementary school children but have not been studied previously. The first two studies introduce a new Perceived Peer Group Pressures (PPGP) Scale suitable for this age group, demonstrating that perceived pressure regarding peer culture (norms for behavioral, attitudinal, and material characteristics) can be reliably measured and that it is connected to children's responses to hypothetical peer pressure vignettes. Studies 3 and 4 evaluate the main theoretical model of associations between peer relations and materialism. Study 3 supports the hypothesis that peer rejection is related to higher perceived peer culture pressure, which in turn is associated with greater materialism. Study 4 confirms that the endorsement of social motives for materialism mediates the relationship between perceived peer pressure and materialism.
Flouri, E. Parental socialization in childhood and offspring materialist and postmaterialist values in adult life. Journal of Applied Social Psychology, 33 (10): 2106-2122 Oct 2003.
Abstract: This study used data from the British National Child Development Study (NCDS) to examine the role of parental socialization in offspring materialist and postmaterialist values in adult life. It was found that for both genders, educational attainment was positively associated with postmaterialist values. Poor relations with father in adolescence and absence of partner in adult life predicted postmaterialist values in women, and religiosity and absence of financial difficulties in childhood predicted materialist values in men.
Achenreiner, GB. Materialistic values and susceptibility to influence in children. Advances in Consumer Research, Vol XXIV, 24: 82-88 1997.
Abstract: Materialistic attitudes of children, ranging in age from 8 to 16, were examined using a multi-item materialism scale for children. The findings indicate that materialism is a relatively stable trait, varying only marginally with age, despite the numerous developmental changes taking place as a child gets older. The study also examined the relationship between materialism and susceptibility to peer influence and found a significant correlation of .44. The findings support the hypothesis that materialism and susceptibility to influence are positively related. This research is critical for better understanding how materialistic attitudes develop and the role peer influence has on these attitudes.
Easterlin, RA; Crimmins, EM. Private Materialism, Personal Self-Fulfillment, Family Life, and Public Interest. Public Opinion Quarterly, 55 (4): 499-533 WIN 1991.
Abstract: From the early seventies through 1986-87, private materialism as a life goal increased greatly in importance among American youth, goals relating to family life increased somewhat, public interest concerns diminished modestly, and the goal of personal self-fulfillment declined sharply. Accompanying this shift in values was a change in young people's college majors and career plans toward those leading to higher paying jobs and a marked increase in the attractiveness of working in large corporations. Jobs offering money and status became more preferred relative to those with opportunities for self-fulfillment or public service. Support grew for capitalist institutions such as profit making and advertising. At the same time, there was a retreat from political involvement, and a conservative shift in political beliefs. Explanations of the shift in values in terms of the impact on the young of major political and social events or the emergence of a feeling of economic insecurity among the young are not supported by the evidence. Nor are a number of hypotheses relating to changes in young people's family structure or socialization experience. The shift in values of the young does, however, apparently correspond to a similar change in the values of adults generally and, thus, may reflect changes in the values transmitted to young people as they were growing up. We speculate that the shift in values among adults was, in turn, caused by a growing feeling of economic deprivation in the post-1973 period as real wage rates declined and material aspirations continued to rise. In the last few years, the shift in the life goals of the young appears to have ended and may even have started to reverse, but young people today are still much different from those 15 years ago.
Flouri, E. Exploring the relationship between mothers' and fathers' parenting practices and children's materialist values. Journal of Economic Psychology, 25 (6): 743-752 Dec 2004.
Abstract: Data on 2218 British secondary school age children were used to explore the relationship between parenting and materialism. A hierarchical multiple regression analysis carried out to explore the role of parenting in children's materialism showed that although father involvement was unrelated to materialism, mother's involvement was negatively and inter-parental conflict was positively related to child's materialism. Emotional and behavioural problems and goal-directedness were both positively associated with materialism in adolescents. Compared to girls boys scored higher in materialism. Age and materialism were positively related. Peer support was more strongly associated with children's materialism when both fathers' and mothers' involvement were low rather than high. Neither child's sex nor family structure moderated the relationship between parents' involvement and children's materialistic attitudes. (C) 2003 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved.
Banerjee, R (Banerjee, Robin); Dittmar, H (Dittmar, Helga). Individual differences in children's materialism: The role of peer relations. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 34 (1): 17-31 Jan 2008.
Abstract: Associations between materialism and peer relations are likely to exist in elementary school children but have not been studied previously. The first two studies introduce a new Perceived Peer Group Pressures (PPGP) Scale suitable for this age group, demonstrating that perceived pressure regarding peer culture (norms for behavioral, attitudinal, and material characteristics) can be reliably measured and that it is connected to children's responses to hypothetical peer pressure vignettes. Studies 3 and 4 evaluate the main theoretical model of associations between peer relations and materialism. Study 3 supports the hypothesis that peer rejection is related to higher perceived peer culture pressure, which in turn is associated with greater materialism. Study 4 confirms that the endorsement of social motives for materialism mediates the relationship between perceived peer pressure and materialism.
Flouri, E. Parental socialization in childhood and offspring materialist and postmaterialist values in adult life. Journal of Applied Social Psychology, 33 (10): 2106-2122 Oct 2003.
Abstract: This study used data from the British National Child Development Study (NCDS) to examine the role of parental socialization in offspring materialist and postmaterialist values in adult life. It was found that for both genders, educational attainment was positively associated with postmaterialist values. Poor relations with father in adolescence and absence of partner in adult life predicted postmaterialist values in women, and religiosity and absence of financial difficulties in childhood predicted materialist values in men.
Achenreiner, GB. Materialistic values and susceptibility to influence in children. Advances in Consumer Research, Vol XXIV, 24: 82-88 1997.
Abstract: Materialistic attitudes of children, ranging in age from 8 to 16, were examined using a multi-item materialism scale for children. The findings indicate that materialism is a relatively stable trait, varying only marginally with age, despite the numerous developmental changes taking place as a child gets older. The study also examined the relationship between materialism and susceptibility to peer influence and found a significant correlation of .44. The findings support the hypothesis that materialism and susceptibility to influence are positively related. This research is critical for better understanding how materialistic attitudes develop and the role peer influence has on these attitudes.
Easterlin, RA; Crimmins, EM. Private Materialism, Personal Self-Fulfillment, Family Life, and Public Interest. Public Opinion Quarterly, 55 (4): 499-533 WIN 1991.
Abstract: From the early seventies through 1986-87, private materialism as a life goal increased greatly in importance among American youth, goals relating to family life increased somewhat, public interest concerns diminished modestly, and the goal of personal self-fulfillment declined sharply. Accompanying this shift in values was a change in young people's college majors and career plans toward those leading to higher paying jobs and a marked increase in the attractiveness of working in large corporations. Jobs offering money and status became more preferred relative to those with opportunities for self-fulfillment or public service. Support grew for capitalist institutions such as profit making and advertising. At the same time, there was a retreat from political involvement, and a conservative shift in political beliefs. Explanations of the shift in values in terms of the impact on the young of major political and social events or the emergence of a feeling of economic insecurity among the young are not supported by the evidence. Nor are a number of hypotheses relating to changes in young people's family structure or socialization experience. The shift in values of the young does, however, apparently correspond to a similar change in the values of adults generally and, thus, may reflect changes in the values transmitted to young people as they were growing up. We speculate that the shift in values among adults was, in turn, caused by a growing feeling of economic deprivation in the post-1973 period as real wage rates declined and material aspirations continued to rise. In the last few years, the shift in the life goals of the young appears to have ended and may even have started to reverse, but young people today are still much different from those 15 years ago.
HFWR
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
"We didn't know we were poor" sums up my depression-era parents. Not particularly sophisticated financially, but they managed to live within their means, while raising four kids on blue collar wages, then retire in middle-class fashion with modest pensions and SS.
CuppaJoe
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mountaintosea
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I picked average/frugal. Not sure what average was. Nice house but we brought lunch to school saved the paper bags and cellophane. Coupons was a big thing. Sales were a big thing. Parents bought a new car when it hit 50,000 miles or every couple of years. Saving was always harped on, but frugal/frugal? I don't think so. In fact I think they think I'm too frugal and my brothers and sister are too "spendy".
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