EV to ICE or Hybrid

On the Web, there's a story about a Canadian getting frustrated with finding chargers for his Ford electric truck when trying to make a trip from Winnipeg to Chicago. This story is widely republished on many Web sites, so I will not bother to link it here.

But in following the story to other anecdotes of charger availability in Canada, I ran across a chart by IEA (International Energy Agency) showing the number of charging points per EV, listed by country.

I was surprised to see Norway having the least chargers at 33 EVs per charging point. Korea leads the list at 2 EVs per charging point.

Whoa! Norway, the country widely publicized as most friendly to EVs has the fewest public chargers.

When in Oslo 2 months ago, I did not count the percentage of EVs I saw on city streets, but was not impressed by what I saw. In fact, people in the city did not have cars. They took the bus. I did not travel to the Norwegian countryside to see for myself, but suspect that people with cars live out in the open country, and they have homes instead of apartments, and they charge their EVs at home. Perhaps they also have garages for their EVs, and that's how men and machines survive the winter.

10965-albums220-picture2835.png
 
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The vapor controls help, but don’t eliminate the issue at all times.
If people spill any fuel, fill up canisters, etc, you some of those toxic fumes.

After I switched to EVs, it became more and more apparent when I did visit a gas station. I believe it was simply a matter of no longer being acclimated to the smell.

While this factor does play a role in why I won’t go back to a gas car, a bigger one is that I absolutely hate pumping gas in a storm, or worse yet, a blizzard.
 
^^^^ Much prefer the smell of exhaust fumes from gas. Not diesel but gasoline.

When I was maybe 10, my mom would get mad at me when I would sit by the exhaust and breath in the exhaust fumes while the car was warming up in the winter. Dumb, but I loved that smell... And that's when gas was leaded too.

I guess that explains a lot now. :)
 
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NW-Bound said:
On the Web, there's a story about a Canadian getting frustrated with finding chargers for his Ford electric truck when trying to make a trip from Winnipeg to Chicago. This story is widely republished on many Web sites, so I will not bother to link it here.

But in following the story to other anecdotes of charger availability in Canada, I ran across a chart by IEA (International Energy Agency) showing the number of charging points per EV, listed by country.

I was surprised to see Norway having the least chargers at 33 EVs per charging point. Korea leads the list at 2 EVs per charging point.

Whoa! Norway, the country widely publicized as most friendly to EVs has the fewest public chargers.

When in Oslo 2 months ago, I did not count the percentage of EVs I saw on city streets, but was not impressed by what I saw. In fact, people in the city did not have cars. They took the bus. I did not travel to the Norwegian countryside to see for myself, but suspect that people with cars live out in the open country, and they have homes instead of apartments, and they charge their EVs at home. Perhaps they also have garages for their EVs, and that's how men and machines survive the winter.

10965-albums220-picture2835.png
Click to expand...






The question then becomes how many charging points do you need, or the other side, how many EVs per charging point...


Also, is this public charging points? IOW, if you read the EV post and have a EV you should have a charging point... so a 1v1 seems to be what is 'ideal'...



There are a LOT more cars per gas station so to me 20 seems quite low...


Also, without the numbers you really do not know... Korea might only have 2 EVS with 1 charger (I know this is not true, just making a point)...
 
^^^ Of course the above statistics are public charging points.

Else, if one has 4 outdoor electrical outlets, plus 3 in his garage, that would be counted as 7 charging points. :) They are all Level 1, but, hey, a charging point is a charging point.

PS. I believe a charging pedestal with two cables hanging from it to serve two EVs simultaneously would be counted as 2 charging points.
 
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yakers said:
Hey, am I the only one who since childhood likes the fragrance of fresh gas?
Click to expand...

I liked it too. It was the aromatics in the benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene and xylene that combined to make the odor I liked.:cool:

And, of course, I went off to work in the oil & gas industry for the next 30 years! :)
 
Some people like the smell of napalm. :hide:
 
per topic of this thread - here is someone who most likely has gone from EV to non-EV:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-234104336.html

What's most surprising (at least to me): is the mentioning of cost to fast-charge the EV is more than gas. We were told that EVs cost much less to charge than gas.


"A Canadian man is calling electric vehicles the "biggest scam of modern times" after his frustrating experience with an electric truck.

Dalbir Bala, who lives in the Winnipeg area, bought a Ford F-150 Lightning EV in January for $115,000 Canadian dollars (around $85,000 U.S. dollars), plus tax. Ford said the Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) on the vehicle is $77,495 U.S. dollars."

"Fast charging stations – which only charge EV’s up to 90% – cost more than gas for the same mileage. On the family’s first stop in Fargo, North Dakota, it took two hours and $56 to charge his vehicle from 10% to 90%. The charge was good for another 215 miles."
 
Zathras said:
The vapor controls help, but don’t eliminate the issue at all times.
If people spill any fuel, fill up canisters, etc, you some of those toxic fumes.

After I switched to EVs, it became more and more apparent when I did visit a gas station. I believe it was simply a matter of no longer being acclimated to the smell.

While this factor does play a role in why I won’t go back to a gas car, a bigger one is that I absolutely hate pumping gas in a storm, or worse yet, a blizzard.
Click to expand...
I’m afraid we really can’t stand exhaust smells anymore especially diesel. Then occasionally you even smell raw gasoline. Walking down the main street in a resort town this morning DH was ready to put on his mask - too many delivery tricks and other smelly vehicles. Fortunately we were able to switch to a side street.

The HEPA filtered air in our EV was another big point. No road smells.
 
yhoomajor said:
per topic of this thread - here is someone who most likely has gone from EV to non-EV:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-234104336.html

What's most surprising (at least to me): is the mentioning of cost to fast-charge the EV is more than gas. We were told that EVs cost much less to charge than gas.


"A Canadian man is calling electric vehicles the "biggest scam of modern times" after his frustrating experience with an electric truck.

Dalbir Bala, who lives in the Winnipeg area, bought a Ford F-150 Lightning EV in January for $115,000 Canadian dollars (around $85,000 U.S. dollars), plus tax. Ford said the Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) on the vehicle is $77,495 U.S. dollars."

"Fast charging stations – which only charge EV’s up to 90% – cost more than gas for the same mileage. On the family’s first stop in Fargo, North Dakota, it took two hours and $56 to charge his vehicle from 10% to 90%. The charge was good for another 215 miles."
Click to expand...


To be fair he is in Canada.... I cannot see that cost being in most places in the US....
 
Texas Proud said:
To be fair he is in Canada.... I cannot see that cost being in most places in the US....
Click to expand...

Right.. some of his frustrations might be unique to Canada (or due to remoteness in Canada). But his point about pricing for charging was in North Dakota (Fargo). I quoted that point because it stood out as a surprise to me.

I'm open to EVs. Primarily because there is no "Coolant" or transmission "run by fluids" involved. These two are the primary cause of expensive repairs in most (if not all Ice engines). These fluids leak here and there after certain age. And every leak is another $1000+ repair these days.

A good middle ground would be:
- Ice engine that charges a battery
- has no coolant (Air Conditioner somehow cooling the battery engine assembly)
- has no transmission. Battery powers the motor based on speed requirement.

Most Ice engines have matured to the point that they don't require much maintenance other than oil change here & there.
 
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NW-Bound said:
But in following the story to other anecdotes of charger availability in Canada, I ran across a chart by IEA (International Energy Agency) showing the number of charging points per EV, listed by country.

I was surprised to see Norway having the least chargers at 33 EVs per charging point. Korea leads the list at 2 EVs per charging point.

Whoa! Norway, the country widely publicized as most friendly to EVs has the fewest public chargers.
Click to expand...


I'd like to see a comparison of the number of chargers per mile of public highways - Federal, state and local. That's were the rubber meets the road.
 
yhoomajor said:
Right.. some of his frustrations might be unique to Canada (or due to remoteness in Canada). But his point about pricing for charging was in North Dakota (Fargo). I quoted that point because it stood out as a surprise to me.

I'm open to EVs. Primarily because there is no "Coolant" or transmission "run by fluids" involved. These two are the primary cause of expensive repairs in most (if not all Ice engines). These fluids leak here and there after certain age. And every leak is another $1000+ repair these days.

A good middle ground would be:
- Ice engine that charges a battery
- has no coolant (Air Conditioner somehow cooling the battery engine assembly)
- has no transmission. Battery powers the motor based on speed requirement.

Most Ice engines have matured to the point that they don't require much maintenance other than oil change here & there.
Click to expand...

EV batteries have liquid cooling systems and drive gearboxes contain 90 weight oil. They are not entirely devoid of liquids.
 
yhoomajor said:
......................
"Fast charging stations – which only charge EV’s up to 90% – cost more than gas for the same mileage. On the family’s first stop in Fargo, North Dakota, it took two hours and $56 to charge his vehicle from 10% to 90%. The charge was good for another 215 miles."
Click to expand...
That seems painful. 2 hrs of sitting round to get 215 miles.
Even my suburban's 45 gallon tank gets filled in typically 10 minutes from 1/4 tank.
 
Chuckanut said:
I'd like to see a comparison of the number of chargers per mile of public highways - Federal, state and local. That's were the rubber meets the road.
Click to expand...

Sounds reasonable, but the above metric can still be misleading.

Suppose one country has a very dense network of highways. This may make its number of "charging points per mile" looks very poor. However, due to the roadways being dense, the driver can just make a slight detour in order to get to a convenient charging spot. I hope my explanation is clear.

On the other hand, the number of EVs per charging point is also a bad metric, if the charging points are concentrated in the cities, and there are insufficient chargers for long-distance travel.

And then, what's a good metric for the hapless traveler who happens to drive by a remote stretch, and the few chargers along the way are broken? This is similar to Alaska travelers who sometimes have to camp at a remote gas station if it runs out of gas, in order to wait for the tanker to come.
 
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aja8888 said:
EV batteries have liquid cooling systems and drive gearboxes contain 90 weight oil. They are not entirely devoid of liquids.
Click to expand...

Right. But I think (or hoping), because there is power plant (Ice engine) right there, battery doesn't need to be super large (like in case of Tesla et al).

With a smaller battery size, HVAC can cool down the battery area with air cooling:

https://evmagazine.com/technology/ev-battery-cooling-why-is-it-so-important

Snippet: "First, there’s air cooling, which, unsurprisingly, uses air to cool the battery. This can be either active or passive, meaning the car either draws air from outside or in the cabin (passive), or will be supported by a heating, ventilation, and air conditioning (HVAC) system (active). Often, the latter solution uses no more than 1kW of cooling and can also be used to heat or cool the cabin. The components that power the EV, such as the HVAC system, motor, inverter, and battery, are optimised by a battery thermal management system (BTMS)."

They do talk about liquid cooling being the most used way of cooling EV batteries. But I think thats primarily because those batteries are super duper large? and need to be charged way up the scale, heating a large surface area?
 
yhoomajor said:
Right. But I think (or hoping), because there is power plant (Ice engine) right there, battery doesn't need to be super large (like in case of Tesla et al).

With a smaller battery size, HVAC can cool down the battery area with air cooling:

https://evmagazine.com/technology/ev-battery-cooling-why-is-it-so-important

Snippet: "First, there’s air cooling, which, unsurprisingly, uses air to cool the battery. This can be either active or passive, meaning the car either draws air from outside or in the cabin (passive), or will be supported by a heating, ventilation, and air conditioning (HVAC) system (active). Often, the latter solution uses no more than 1kW of cooling and can also be used to heat or cool the cabin. The components that power the EV, such as the HVAC system, motor, inverter, and battery, are optimised by a battery thermal management system (BTMS)."

They do talk about liquid cooling being the most used way of cooling EV batteries. But I think thats primarily because those batteries are super duper large? and need to be charged way up the scale, heating a large surface area?
Click to expand...

Air cooling the batteries on the earlier EV's, like Leaf didn't turn out so well.
 
NW-Bound said:
Sounds reasonable, but the above metric can still be misleading.

Suppose one country has a very dense network of highways. This may make its number of "charging points per mile" looks very poor. However, due to the roadways being dense, the driver can just make a slight detour in order to get to a convenient charging spot. I hope my explanation is clear.

On the other hand, the number of EVs per charging point is also a bad metric, if the charging points are concentrated in the cities, and there are insufficient chargers for long-distance travel.

And then, what's a good metric for the hapless traveler who happens to drive by a remote stretch, and the few chargers along the way are broken? This is similar to Alaska travelers who sometimes have to camp at a remote gas station if it runs out of gas, in order to wait for the tanker to come.
Click to expand...


Good points.



I hope our leaders are actually working on these issues of power generation, distribution and charging services, and not just toasting themselves for mandating All Electric.
 
It's hard to cool anything when the asphalt is hotter than 150F here. And these low-rider EVs have the floor battery sitting 6" from the ground.

I realized I needed to build a larger solar shed with AC, when I came out to check up on my DIY equipment in the backyard solar shed, in the middle of a hot summer day recently. I saw that one of the charge controllers, a big and beautiful FLEXMax 80, was delivering only 40A. Hey, it was just loafing along, instead of cranking out the max to feed the hungry battery.

It turned out that this charge controller was overheating, and was smart enough to reduce its output to keep from burning. My IR thermometer clocked it at 165+F. Yikes. Air temperature around the shed was 120-125F, because it was sitting out in the sun.

Until the temperature eases off, I am leaving the doors to the shed wide open for ventilation. I also have an industrial fan to move air around. Have seen the controller putting out what it is supposed to do.
 
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NW-Bound said:
It's hard to cool anything when the asphalt is hotter than 150F here.

I realized I need to build a larger solar shed with AC, when I came out to check up on my DIY equipment in the backyard solar shed, in the middle of a hot summer day recently. I saw that one of the charge controllers, a big and beautiful FLEXMax 80, was delivering only 40A. Hey, it was just loafing along, instead of cranking out the max to feed the hungry battery.
.
Click to expand...

I've few solar panels in my backyard too (Phoenix metro area). What I'm seeing is that solar panels' voltage drops significantly once air temperature moves higher than 105 degrees. As you know, panel's surface temperature would be way higher than 105 due to sun's direct bright light around noon time.
 
Yes, I have clocked my panels at higher than 160F. And I could get only about 80% of the rated power, even when the sun was directly overhead.

When the controller itself cuts backs on the output to save itself from overheating, this causes additional loss. One can tell that by watching the panel output voltage. Instead of being loaded down by the controller to the Vmax point (maximum power voltage), the panel voltage floats back up to the Voc point (open-circuit voltage).
 
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Chuckanut said:
Good points.

I hope our leaders are actually working on these issues of power generation, distribution and charging services, and not just toasting themselves for mandating All Electric.
Click to expand...

Not!

Actually that is being generous. The mandate EV crowd has a huge overlap with the no nuclear power plant crowd and the NIMBY transmission crowd. So not only not working on it, but working against it.

EDIT - I'm in no way opposed to EVs, just EV mandates.
 
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