Ambition and ER

[Katsmeow]

I found this article about Ambition with an Early Retirement slant very interesting

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...b62cd0-71df-11e5-8248-98e0f5a2e830_story.html

Basically advocates for not having ambition. Author was a journalist who said he followed the rule of one wife, one house and thinks the benefits of ambition are overstated.

Thought it was an interesting article. I was probably a bit more ambitious than he was. But, his view reminds me a lot of my husband who worked over 30 years for the same company and happily retired at 62.

 

[bingybear]

no sure what to say to this. When I was growing up people noted that I seemed to always be working to something... but slept through school... shocked many when I RE @53. I worked way too many hours for a wage.
not sure where you are going with this thread

 

[ProspectiveBum]

I'm not ambitious, and I'm totally fine with it. I work in IT, and moved into management in my 20s. After 7+ years, I couldn't wait to get back to coding full-time. Any ambition I'd had as a young guy had been beaten out of me by endless meetings and BS by then.

I've been back in a technical role for about 8 years, and I love it. My bosses periodically talk about moving me into architect or similar roles, and I politely decline. I've told them that I don't care about titles or advancement, I just want to do interesting work that helps the bottom line.

I do draw a distinction between being ambitious and being a hard worker. I consider myself a hard worker, and fairly regularly work OT in support of deadlines.

I will say that I find it annoying when some of my peers assume that if you're in your mid-40's and still writing code, that it's because you couldn't hack anything more than that. I was plenty capable in those roles, I just didn't enjoy it. It's nice to not be handcuffed by the management salary/bonuses, and generally enjoy my work while I count the months until I can FIRE.

 

[harley]

That article paints a pretty accurate picture of me. I worked for a paycheck, although that didn't mean I didn't enjoy doing it and didn't do as good a job as I could. But once I didn't need to I didn't work anymore. I remember my joy at first not having to go in to work (I still feel it too). Luckily DW ER'ed before I did, because I wouldn't make a great housewife. But between the two of us we get the job done. I think that's an unusual article to see in mainstream media, as they seem to focus on work for pride until you die. It may just be more click bait that happens to resonate with me. I assume that happens sometimes, although most of it annoys me.

 

[Sarah in SC]

I can see it. I never really had any massive ambition either, was a lazy student, and really only motivated to do the things I wanted to do, ever.
Thigh I'm not setting the world on fire, I'm a reliable and loyal employee, but not remotely ambitious.

 

[Senator]

I always said "the reason I work so hard is because I am lazy". I do not want to work until I am 90.

 

[hnzw_rui]

I just want to do interesting work that helps the bottom line.

I do draw a distinction between being ambitious and being a hard worker. I consider myself a hard worker, and fairly regularly work OT in support of deadlines.

+1. I'm the same. I work hard and will regularly do OT to meet deadlines. However, I have absolutely no plans of going any higher on the totem pole. Too many meetings and politics when you're in management.

 

[stepford]

Another low ambition individual here too. As far back as college I remember telling friends that if I was a car I'd have a great motor but no driveshaft. Lucky for me life's been downhill ever since.

 

[Sea Kayaker]

I certainly wasn't ambitious career-wise. But when I was 32, I decided I wanted to retire at 45. I actually did it at 42. THAT was ambition.

 

[Katsmeow]

no sure what to say to this. When I was growing up people noted that I seemed to always be working to something... but slept through school... shocked many when I RE @53. I worked way too many hours for a wage.
not sure where you are going with this thread

Well, I'm not going anywhere with it. Just thought it was an interesting article and was curious about how lack of ambition intersects with early retirement. As someone pointed out, lack of work ambition doesn't mean not being a hard worker. Although maybe hard isn't the right word. Perhaps diligent is better.

And, it is a good point as made by someone else that wanting to retire early is itself an ambition.

But, I would expect that many people who retire early are people who didn't have high work ambitions. There are exceptions I know. There can be some who had high ambitions, met them and then were done.

I would think that many of the people without high work ambitions are people who are satisficers, rather than maximizers. (A satisficer buying a notebook computer would find one he or she liked and buy it; a maximizer would research it to death to find the one best notebook computer. The satisficer is more satisfied with what is good enough and doesn't strive for what is the best).

 

[bingybear]

Well, I'm not going anywhere with it. Just thought it was an interesting article and was curious about how lack of ambition intersects with early retirement. As someone pointed out, lack of work ambition doesn't mean not being a hard worker. Although maybe hard isn't the right word. Perhaps diligent is better.

And, it is a good point as made by someone else that wanting to retire early is itself an ambition.

But, I would expect that many people who retire early are people who didn't have high work ambitions. There are exceptions I know. There can be some who had high ambitions, met them and then were done.

I would think that many of the people without high work ambitions are people who are satisficers, rather than maximizers. (A satisficer buying a notebook computer would find one he or she liked and buy it; a maximizer would research it to death to find the one best notebook computer. The satisficer is more satisfied with what is good enough and doesn't strive for what is the best).

Well, for me and computers.. I never buy the absolute latest... but a step back down from late latest... a compromise between performance and cost.
As for careers, I worked really hard at being good in my technical areas. The "s" is the problem as I changed focus several times during my career. Sometimes this was due to moves for family reasons or shifts in the industry. Our moves were sometimes constrained by dual careers (DW and mine) that we considered equal importance... and other family constraints ... more recently MIL with health problems.
At this point I'm setting up the tools to work on some really neat problems. I've had some offers to consult or go back to work. Right now I'm choosing to do my own thing..doing FDTD analysis on my quad i5. Am I ambitious or lazy... that is how others perceive me. If the gig is right ($ and interest for me)... I'll likely do it. If either is missing, $ or a good learning experience, why do it? When you have the pennies to live on...what is left, learning something new, experiencing something new, or doing good for the world.

I worked hard, stupidly long hours, but did not play the political games. If I lacked ambition, it was pushing my self up the ladder... or taking the opportunities to move up the ladder. I did not lack at learning new technical areas. Maybe ambitious in the wrong area. RE allows me to be ambitious in learning. I can improve things other than other people's pockets.
The real question is RE escape from doing anything, or opening other opportunities? I pick the latter

 

[hnzw_rui]

A satisficer buying a notebook computer would find one he or she liked and buy it; a maximizer would research it to death to find the one best notebook computer. The satisficer is more satisfied with what is good enough and doesn't strive for what is the best.

I definitely fall on the satisficer side when it comes to work ambition (or maybe it's because I'm lucky enough to be in a job I find fairly interesting). As a consumer, I would have thought I fall more on the satisficer side but curiously, I seem to be channeling Harvey Dent. I have a tendency to research and overthink my options but quite often, after getting fed up with all the back and forth, I'd end up making the final choice based on a coin flip.

Well, for me and computers.. I never buy the absolute latest... but a step back down from late latest... a compromise between performance and cost.

I actually do buy the absolute latest (I build computers for a hobby). However, I go for mid-range parts instead of high-end. That typically gets you 80-90% of the performance for half the cost.

 

[marko]

Within the context of RE, I don't see how you can RE without ambition. (unless you view living on welfare or a trust fund as a viable option).

Despite the claims of the posters here of being lazy or unfocused, I think that most here had a plan (RE) and a strategy (FI) and tactics (LBYM) to get there and worked pretty hard to make it a reality, one way or another.

Lack of ambition sort of limits your financial options down the line.

The writer is "getting by on my wife's salary and my small pension"; hardly a robust strategy long term...see ya in the food line bub!

 

[donheff]

I was not particularly ambitious but I wasn't like author who says:

Indeed, a former boss once told me I was a “why do?” guy as opposed to a “can do” guy. He didn’t mean it as a compliment, but I took it as one."

I always worked hard and was one of the go to guys who bosses could trust to get things done. I just didn't really have eyes on the top job(s). The can-do attitude may have worked in my favor for actually getting to the top rungs because sh*t always seemed to fall in my bag, as the saying goes. I kept getting promoted and finally was temporarily handed the top job in my field and agency when my boss got sent packing even though I was reluctant to take it. Spoiler - the job I was ambivalent about turned out to be fun - for several years - and I ended up taking it on a permanent basis. Fortunately, my can do attitude enabled me to snag very good lateral moves to another field when the job turned a bit sour later on. One negative note of my somewhat hidden lack of ambition was that I always felt like I was two steps ahead of the sheriff, as another saying goes. And, similar to the author, I did always liked the idea of ER and took that route as soon as I could.

 

[target2019]

The article was well written. I enjoyed it. His response is understandable given he was fired or quit, and lives in a distinct vacation area of the state (NJ) that encourages a laid-back attitude.

I was never a high performer. One boss remarked that he saw I worked smarter, not harder. I prefer to work in proportion to the pay received, not for promotion. Current job is paying me what I requested, so I make sure the effort is at a professional level.

 

[frayne]

Can't argue with his logic one bit. After 32 years in the rat race nothing wrong with getting off and enjoying what you want to do.

 

[aja8888]

I grew up poor but became ambitious and set out to move up in life. After getting myself through college and working my way up to be the youngest Plant Manager of a very large manufacturing firm in the company's history, I got tired of the BS.

Then went into consulting and worked for a large consulting firm. Once again, ambition bit me and I became a VP and had to sell and do projects... big ones. I quickly got sick of the constant BS and pressure and went out on my own, where I have been for 18 years.

Ambition and moving up to meet greater expectations is fine, but unless some employer is going to commission an 8 foot high bronze statue of you to be erected in front of the corporate office, it is not what it is made out to be.

 

[Eagle43]

If I had any ambition, I would have learned how to play golf; then I would have deliberately lost to the boss.

Sent from my AT100 using Early Retirement Forum mobile app

 

[6miths]

am·bi·tion amˈbiSH(ə)n/ noun
noun: ambition; plural noun: ambitions

a strong desire to do or to achieve something, typically requiring determination and hard work.

I would guess that most in the FIRE group have quite a bit of ambition. It may just not be directed in manners that society commonly sees as desirable.

 

[bingybear]

but it is desirable. we are helping reduce the unemployment rate

 

[Sarah in SC]

I would guess that most in the FIRE group have quite a bit of ambition. It may just not be directed in manners that society commonly sees as desirable.

That's probable quite fair. I am very motivated to do the things I want to do, but those things rarely intersect with what the workplace rewards. I worked too long for my dad, an entrepreneur and farmer, and I gained a healthy perspective on just how much effort was involved in that. Not for me! I'm a solid wage earner type.

 

[panacea]

I think I have some ambition but I've always tried to manage it and direct it toward what I felt was most important to me. I knew the grades I needed to get in high school to get into the college I wanted... something between a 3.0 and 3.25. If I got an A on a difficult exam, I knew I studied too much. I probably followed a similar approach in college. The objective was to get a good job, not rank in the top 5 or 10%.

At work, I work like crazy, I'd say much more efficiently than most in the office so I don't have to put in many extra hours. While there are some days I need to come in early and/or stay late, most of the time I'm able to get what many would consider 60+ hours of work done in a 40-45 hour work week. Those that know me well know I work hard and at the same time, I'm sure there are plenty of colleagues that see me leave early once in a while and think I'm lazy. Working hard and avoid the office chit-chat allows me to get my workouts in, get home to make the family dinner, relax and get 7-8 hours of sleep.

I'm also much like others here on this forum when it comes to working hard and saving aggressively now so that I don't have to work... or because I'm working because I want to not because I have to.

 

[rodi]

Lack of ambition sort of limits your financial options down the line.

Yes and no... I turned down promotions that would have put me into people and project management in order to stay on the technical track. That definitely cost me, financially. Probably on the order of 30-40k/year by the end of my career. But I had no desire for those headaches.

I worked hard for the designated work hours, but avoided the high profile (intense deadlines, weekend working) projects. I worked on the less sexy, bread and butter jobs that weren't as cutting edge. It meant I never got the very top performance ranking (reserved for those folks who worked intense deadline projects) - but still got better than average performance reviews. I had no desire for reaching the next pay grade... I was making enough to reach my goals and had decent work/life balance.

My bosses commented often on their puzzlement about my attitude - noting that I was a good performer, but didn't understand why I didn't want more.

I agree with the article about the one spouse, one house thing. Divorce is expensive. Overbuying your primary home is expensive. (Not just in the house price, but the cost of heating, cooling, HOAs, maintenance, etc.) Buying a modest house and staying in it saves money in the long run.

 

[jjquantz]

...
At work, I work like crazy, I'd say much more efficiently than most in the office so I don't have to put in many extra hours. While there are some days I need to come in early and/or stay late, most of the time I'm able to get what many would consider 60+ hours of work done in a 40-45 hour work week. Those that know me well know I work hard and at the same time, I'm sure there are plenty of colleagues that see me leave early once in a while and think I'm lazy. Working hard and avoid the office chit-chat allows me to get my workouts in, get home to make the family dinner, relax and get 7-8 hours of sleep.
...

Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't. Way back when I worked for Big Oil, I was the nearly the only geophysicist working on the (company approved) 7:00 AM to 3:30 PM flex schedule. What this meant was that I could get one set of jobs through the mainframe before the rest of the crew showed up at 9:00. Then I could get a second pass through along with everyone else to look at in the early afternoon and submit a 3rd before I went home at 3:30. The 9:00 crew could only one run completed and a second submitted before they went home at 5:30. In other words, I got 50% more work done than the rest of them. However, during one performance review it was noted that by not being at the office until 5:30 I was hurting my chances for advancement. Apparently, at this company, face time trumped productivity.

 

[FIREd]

am·bi·tion amˈbiSH(ə)n/ noun
noun: ambition; plural noun: ambitions

a strong desire to do or to achieve something, typically requiring determination and hard work.

I would guess that most in the FIRE group have quite a bit of ambition. It may just not be directed in manners that society commonly sees as desirable.

Based on that definition, I have plenty of ambition. Reaching FI, for one, required plenty of determination and hard work.

Another definition of ambition is "the desire and determination to achieve success". I will expend much energy to succeed in what matters to me. But I won't waste energy to achieve "success" as commonly recognized by society (title, money, bling, power,...). As such, most people think of me as unambitious.