Quick Windows 8.1 Questions

[ERD50]

I'm with you T-Al. Keep the marketing/public terms consistent and public, refer to the internal techy 'build numbers' as 'internal'. Your mock up captures that in a simple and sane way. It is obvious to all what is being conveyed.

There really is no excuse at all for anything less.

That is so easy and obvious, it is just mind-boggling that the MegaCorps (MS is not the only clueless one, unfortunately) can't get the simple and obvious things right.

Apple does a similar thing with their hardware. If I want to find out something specific about the MacBook Pros in our family, the Apple support side lists the different hardware with descriptors like ' 13" MacBook Pro - Spring 2011". So I have to look up, when in 2011 did we buy that? And when is 'spring'? And did I buy the ones just discontinued, or the new model?

If you go to sys prefs, or your receipt, they have a specific Model number. But then you have to go through a google search and magic decoder ring to turn that into a date. They also have an identifier like 'MacBookPro8,1', but that appears to be a more general hardware class descriptor, and includes several different models. And you find all three descriptors used in different places, so it's really a pain. They should put that specific model # on a label, include it in any/all references and be done with it.

-ERD50

 

[W2R]

Al, why not just right click on the Windows icon (the one that looks like 4 window panes, on your taskbar), and select "System".

Here's what I get when I do that. Looks perfectly clear to me what operating system I am running.

Many/most of the things I look for on a regular basis are on this particular right click menu.

 

[meierlde]

Yes, but that is not easily discoverable.

OK, I couldn't resist making the about box easier to understand (this is for all the people who turn on their new machine and wonder "Did I get Windows 8 or Windows 8.1?":

Actually there is a pane that does this the system pane in the control panel which tells you the version number the system performance index and the like. As usual there are multiple ways to skin a cat. Different program managers at MS decided to implement things differently. I used to work in corporate IT and I recall telling MS to stop making so many UI changes as it cost the corporation lost productivity and training time. Of course they had their UI experts who had to justify their existance and kept worrying about the novice user. The post above shows yet another way to access the same pane.
BTW windows 3.1 is not in the version chain you access in windows 8 the version 3.1 was the first version of windows NT not windows, then you went to 3.5 3.51 etc.
Here is a link to the wikipedia article that provides at the bottom a list of marketing names and version numbers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT

BTW one big change happened in Windows 8.1 way under the covers the biggest program is now 256 TB in size, not that anyone could put together a system that large. (It raised the limit to keep even with Linux). In 8.0 it was 8 tb.

 

[TromboneAl]

Al, why not just right click on the Windows icon (the one that looks like 4 window panes, on your taskbar), and select "System".

Yes, that's a very good way to do it (and that's a great way to get to system settings, thanks!) . I just didn't know about it. So, when I got the computer home, I said,

"I hope I did indeed get 8.1 so that I don't have to upgrade. OK, let's see, how do I check the version. I'll open explorer and choose Help/About, that's how it was done for earlier versions. Nope, that didn't work. OK, I'll Google, "how to get windows 8 version." OK, that says to use WINVER. Oh, no, it says I have windows 8. Oh well, I guess I'll have to upgrade. Wait a second, it says I have version 6.3, WTF? Wait, it refers to 8.1 in the trademarking info, and it wouldn't do that if I had Windows 8. OK, I'm set."

And Lena said, "Will you please stop talking to yourself?"

 

[TromboneAl]

I'm learning all the tricks, but slowly because Microsoft has a "give a man a fish" instead of a "teach a man to fish" philosophy.

For example, if I search for Device Manager, it will take me there and not tell me how to get there on my own. So I often go through the search to get somewhere, until I have a moment to figure out a more direct route.

 

[TromboneAl]

Questions about this screen:



1. What do you call it (Metro screen)?
2. How would I switch the apps right to left and vv?
3. Can I open two desktops in the two sides?
4. Is there a way to say "Open this in the metro screen?"
5.Why would people accept a system with such limited control over individual window sizes and position?
6. I have one app which, if I open it in this "metro" window, it immediately disappears -- is that common?

I have one app, which, because of it's limitations, would work well in this setup.

 

[rbmrtn]

windows doesn't come with virtual desktops. There is a sysinternals download that allows that feature, here's a link to sysinternals

Desktops

Linux has supported virtual desktops forever ( if you feel like coming over )

 

[ERD50]

windows doesn't come with virtual desktops. There is a sysinternals download that allows that feature, here's a link to sysinternals

Desktops

Linux has supported virtual desktops forever ( if you feel like coming over )

Virtual desktops ('workspaces' in the Xubuntu vocabulary) are one of the major features that I I just love about my Linux system - and when I go to other computers, I feel like I'm in the Stone Age w/o them.

Apple introduces this feature a while back, long after I'd been using it in Linux - I forget their term for it (Spaces?), but when I tried it on a Mac I felt like I had one arm tied behind my back. The Apple implementation was terrible - awkward and very limiting. It was hard to move from virtual desktop to virtual desktop, and apps were locked to one or the other. Painful.

In Xubuntu, I keep ~ 6 workspaces open, and with a click I can add/delete workspaces. I keep one empty, so I can move there and see an empty desktop when I want - so much easier than 'hiding' apps to get to the desktop. I can move from workspace to workspace with a mouse click or a key-stroke. I can drag any window from one space to another to re-org on the fly. And I have two indicators in my lower panel (kind of like a 'dock') which show me the status - one visual, and one a text-based pop-up. It just makes using each if these so easy it's incredible. It is truly 'elegant'.

It's one of the reasons I don't bother with an external monitor - the workspaces organize my work so well, I don't have as much need for more screen space. For example, I keep my email in one workspace, my 'system' stuff in a another, this forum, and google news in another, my stock quotes in another, and maybe two or three other things of interest in their own workspaces. By flipping between them, I have a clear, uncluttered view of whatever I'm interested at that moment.

I just can't use a computer seriously w/o this feature anymore. If Windows does not provide this built in, I'd be lost. Maybe Apple has improved theirs since I last played with it, but it was not anywhere near what Linux offers last time I looked.

If anyone is interested, I might try to post some annotated screenshots to help convey this.

-ERD50

 

[bUU]

I'm willing to believe that you are correct, but can't believe that having two inconsistent alphabetizing schemes or a confusing about box helps marketing or sales.

I was referring to the Windows 8 versus Version 6.3 matter.

I'm sure that the two alphabetizing schemes are simply a matter that accessing the control panel is something other than what it appears to be - accessing files via Windows Explorer - going back to when the look and feel between the control panel and file explorer were so different that no one would have even noticed the difference. By trying to make the control panel look like just another folder in the file system, they'd created this inconsistent aesthetic. If I had to prioritize "fixing" that against fixing something that is really broken, I'd choose the latter. Regardless, the point is that that the inconsistency doesn't stem from a decision, but rather stems from legacy differences, which perhaps are simply not worth ameliorating.

I'm with you T-Al. Keep the marketing/public terms consistent and public, refer to the internal techy 'build numbers' as 'internal'.

Marketing, though, is about what will motivate current revenues, not about what is consistent with the past. I don't see any path forward where your prioritization for marketing will ever be true.

 

[ERD50]

... Marketing, though, is about what will motivate current revenues, not about what is consistent with the past. I don't see any path forward where your prioritization for marketing will ever be true.

Well, I don't see how a confusing and conflicting dialog does anything to 'motivate current revenues'.

I'm not saying anything will change, just that it should change.

Regardless, the point is that that the inconsistency doesn't stem from a decision, but rather stems from legacy differences, ...

That could well be. I've been a 'victim' of that with some of my (in-house) designs. Management asks if we can re-purpose some old obsolete equipment to use with a new product, rather than design from scratch. Yes, it can be done, and yes, it makes sense economically and time-wise. But it leads to a weird, 'shoe-horn' design. And if anyone analyzed that design w/o knowing the 'back-story', they'd be scratching their head as to why this guy decided to go this way, it really wouldn't make sense.

... which perhaps are simply not worth ameliorating.

I'm going to generally disagree on that one. There is a lot of confusion when it comes to using computers. I'd say it is certainly worth making things simple and consistent.

-ERD50

 

[TromboneAl]

Using this menu a lot (thanks W2R). If it were alphabetized, it would be a lot faster to find the option I want.

Now dealing with the failure of the computer to sleep automatically. That is critical to the security of the machine. Because the fingerprint scanner doesn't work with firefox, it is only useful if the machine sleeps after a delay, and requires a scan to wake up.

Thousands or more are having the same issue, and each attempted solution requires a messy system change followed by waiting a minute to see if it works.

Work, work, work.

 

[target2019]

Using this menu a lot (thanks W2R). If it were alphabetized, it would be a lot faster to find the option I want.

[snipped image]

Now dealing with the failure of the computer to sleep automatically. That is critical to the security of the machine. Because the fingerprint scanner doesn't work with firefox, it is only useful if the machine sleeps after a delay, and requires a scan to wake up.

Thousands or more are having the same issue, and each attempted solution requires a messy system change followed by waiting a minute to see if it works.

Work, work, work.

I have a fingerprint scanner with Windows 7 HP notebook. It's more than 3 years old, for reference. Somewhere along the way the browser plugin (FF) stopped working, and could no longer be tweaked to work with the scanner. I implemented fix, next FF version came, broken again. It's disappointing, but you may just have to move on and forget the feature, as I did.

 

[bUU]

Well, I don't see how a confusing and conflicting dialog does anything to 'motivate current revenues'.

I'm sorry you're having trouble understanding that. My earlier comment explained the situation as clearly as is possible.

I'm not saying anything will change, just that it should change.

And really, what you're saying is what you desire to have changed for you, rather than what should be changed.

Yes, it can be done, and yes, it makes sense economically and time-wise. But it leads to a weird, 'shoe-horn' design.

Yet it is what "should" be done if the company's priorities are on the economics and timeliness.

I'm going to generally disagree on that one.

I see no reason to believe your personal prioritization, which very clearly reflects your own personal preferences as a user, is better for the business than the prioritization that is made by those who have a vested interest in the success of the business.

 

[ERD50]

I'm sorry you're having trouble understanding that. My earlier comment explained the situation as clearly as is possible.

And really, what you're saying is what you desire to have changed for you, rather than what should be changed.

Yet it is what "should" be done if the company's priorities are on the economics and timeliness.

I see no reason to believe your personal prioritization, which very clearly reflects your own personal preferences as a user, is better for the business than the prioritization that is made by those who have a vested interest in the success of the business.

So I guess we disagree on just about everything? Can you agree to that? Or is it against your principles?

-ERD50

 

[W2R]

Using this menu a lot (thanks W2R). If it were alphabetized, it would be a lot faster to find the option I want.

Now dealing with the failure of the computer to sleep automatically. That is critical to the security of the machine. Because the fingerprint scanner doesn't work with firefox, it is only useful if the machine sleeps after a delay, and requires a scan to wake up.

Thousands or more are having the same issue, and each attempted solution requires a messy system change followed by waiting a minute to see if it works.

Work, work, work.

On the above menu, click on the third entry, "Power Options". On the left, click on "Change when the Computer Sleeps".

Hope that helps. I haven't had any need to deal with sleep issues since about the first or second day I had this computer (like you), because I have it set to my desired settings.

 

[TromboneAl]

click on "Change when the Computer Sleeps".

Actually, there was something that kept it from going to sleep. I stopped some services, exited the homegroup, turned off Windows Media sharing, and some other things. With each experiment I'd wait a minute, to see if it would sleep, and it wouldn't.

I finally decided to give up on this issue, and actually do something, and as I reached for the keyboard, it slept.

 

[bUU]

So I guess we disagree on just about everything?

Pretty much. There is a pattern, though. What I indicate is generally the actuality, regardless of whether it's good for me or bad for me personally. You - not so much.

 

[scrinch]

Al, what's your overall impression on version 6.3 build 9600 now that you've had it for a little while? Have you found advantages that outweigh your frustrations?

 

[TromboneAl]

Al, what's your overall impression on version 6.3 build 9600 now that you've had it for a little while? Have you found advantages that outweigh your frustrations?

It gets a thumbs up.

Note, however, that I am evaluating the OS and the new machine together, and the biggest improvement, zippiness, is probably due mostly to the upgrade from the dinosaur computer (E1505) I had before.

As for the interface, I'm finding out how to make it work. There are so many things that could be better about it. For example, let's say I have a document on the desktop, say a .txt file. Why can't I just drag it to the taskbar to pin it there? Same with a shortcut to a document. I found out a way to get that done, but it was complicated enough that I'll have to google it again next time to remember how to do it.

In the same vein, why can't I just drag and drop Start apps out of their folders to give me one alphabetical list?

This is how I have my desktop set up right now:



By having the taskbar on the left, I take advantage of the new wider aspect ratio of the screen. But notice how much wasted space there is.

I will probably install a classic shell app. I was going to just get used to this setup, but the rumor is that Windows 8.2 will bring back the classic start menu interface. Why make the new system work if they will bring back the old.

Essentially, the answer is that I like the new interface OK but only because I have been able to completely avoid the Start screen and avoid running Metro apps. So far I haven't met a metro app that I've liked.

The ability to open windows and size them, move them, and overlap them however you like is the most important thing about Windows. Heck, that's why they called it Windows. So they are moving away from that?

I had hoped that Windows 8 would get rid of some of the hassles of dealing with installation problems, the need to reboot frequently, drivers, constant updates, etc., so I'm disappointed that it's pretty much business as usual.

I thought the touchscreen aspect of the interface would be a game changer, but I haven't touched it for days. It's easier to move the mouse cursor to the upper left than it is to reach out and swipe the screen.

Bottom line: I'm glad I upgraded, because the new machine is bigger and faster and Windows 8.1 is not much different from XP, as least in the way I'm using it.

Next I'll review the laptop.

 

[TromboneAl]

I almost took the HP Envy 17 back because the touchpad buttons were too hard to press and the fan was always on (and had an annoying hum).

But now, I've found that I can get by without having to depress the touchpad buttons (plus I'm using my mouse), and with a change in a BIOS setting, the fan only comes on occasionally.

It fits in the rolltop desk because screen isn't much taller.

​

One reason I was forced to upgrade my old computer was that newer apps were too slow. It took forever for the Corel Paintshop app to load, for example. On the new laptop it's pretty fast.

The improvement in brightness and clarity of the HP isn't really noticeable until I put the machines side by side, but I'm sure it makes things easier to read. I like having more screen real estate, but it's less important than I thought it would be.

Note that I will rarely move this laptop, since on trips I'll have my Nexus 7 + Bluetooth keyboard, so bulkiness is not an issue.

The new chiclet style keyboard is a huge improvement, to my surprise. You may have noticed how much longer my posts have been. It's because typing is faster and easier. The backlit keyboard is surprisingly useful; there are times when I need to find a key by sight, and it's dark in the room.

BTW, the word "chiclet" comes from the Nahuatl word tziktli, which refers to a substance used to make gum.

The fingerprint scanner lets me have high security and convenience at the same time.

I have much more memory and disk space that I need, and I may be doing backups to the cloud.

A thumbs up also to Laplink PC Mover Pro. Last time I got a new machine, it took me two weeks to get everything installed and working the way I wanted. PCMover cut at least a week off that.

This is my first HP, all previous machines since my IBM XT have been Dells. It's just as good or better--hard to say. The convenience of buying at Costco--just picking it up and taking it home, and being able to just take it in if I change my mind, is major.

So bottom line: good machine.

 

[ERD50]

T-Al, I'm curious about the BIOS change, what was that? It just seems odd to me that a pre-configured, stock machine would need the consumer to get into the 'techy parts' to make the fan run as it should.

-ERD50

 

[TromboneAl]

T-Al, I'm curious about the BIOS change, what was that? It just seems odd to me that a pre-configured, stock machine would need the consumer to get into the 'techy parts' to make the fan run as it should.

-ERD50

It is a little strange. There's an option in the BIOS to have the fan always on, and it is enabled by default. It is only relevant when on AC power.

I've seen a lot of posts about HP laptop heating issues, so my guess is that HP decided to overkill the problem by having the fan on all the time, but allow noise-o-phobes like me to turn off that feature.

Mine's rarely on my lap, and our house only gets above 70 degrees when I've misjudged the fire, so I'm set.

Pavilion dm1z - new BIOS, "Fan always on" - HP Support Forum - 812135

 

[ERD50]

It is a little strange. There's an option in the BIOS to have the fan always on, and it is enabled by default. It is only relevant when on AC power. ....[/URL]

I see, it's an optional thing, not something every owner would need to do. Yes, a little odd, but I guess it makes some sense. But since the fan is speed controlled anyhow, it doesn't seem necessary. Might be overkill, might be 'feel good' ('hey, I know it's keeping my computer cool'), or they might really have some marginal cooling, where it can heat up fast enough that the fan can't 'catch up' from an idle state - but that seems like a stretch.

-ERD50